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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: combjelly who wrote (379545)	4/21/2008 5:07:36 PM
From: Brumar89	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1573924

"It seems odd to me that its so important to deny that Nazi is short for National Socialist German Workers Party " I have never denied that. But, keep trotting the little straw guy out at every opportunity. "and that they thought they were socialists." Other than the fact that there is no evidence they actually thought that? The only evidence is what they said and what name they choose. Those two evidences are not tiny irrelevant points. Its clear they considered themselves some kind of socialists. "Sheesh, he called himself and his party socialist, but didn't mean it. You'd have to read his mind to know that." Not really. Just look at the policies that were implemented. Why should we think they bought into your definition of socialism? Guess we should explore that. What would they have had to do in order for you to consider their name and self-description truthful? "I would consider this different because he ruled a country which was overwhelmingly at least nominally Christian." Bingo. Now, factor in that Germany had a long history of trade unions and worker's parties and what do you have? The labor movement in the US, which succeeded in establishing the 8 hour work day and 40 hour work week, grew out of the German movement. Many of the early American labor leaders were German immigrants. So calling themselves a socialist worker's party was a no-brainer. "if you could show the vast majority of the German people were at least nominally socialist." Brumar, educate yourself on Weimar Republic Germany. I have to point out, the framework for communism was founded on the works of Karl Marx and Frederik Engels. Well, you're taking my suggestion and crafting an argument to support your opinion. Though the facts you cite to support it seem a little weak - Marx and Engels were German, some early American labor leaders were German ethnics ... The idea socialism was as strongly established in Germany as say, Christianity .... I'm still skeptical. Here is a hint. They weren't French.

To: combjelly who wrote (379545)	4/21/2008 5:59:24 PM
From: Taro	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1573924

the framework for communism was founded on the works of Karl Marx and Frederik Engels. Here is a hint. They weren't French. No, those two were not French but the ideas they promoted were: "It should be noted at this point that Marx did not claim, and nor do Marxists today claim, to be the originator of some brand new kind of knowledge. Marx’s own claim to original ideas was extremely modest. "We stand on the shoulders of the achievements of those who have gone before; but we subject the theories and ideas active in society to critique. That is to say, we understand ideas as products and a part of social relations, which function in one way or another to sustain the social relations that they reflect." "Those who have gone before" were in particular the French Utopian Socialists like Francois Guizot (first used 'Class' and 'Class Struggle'), Quesney ('Social Class') and Proudhion and before them Gabriel Mably, another French philosopher who laid ground for the Utopian Socialists. Furthermore the British David Ricard (1772-1823): 'the greatest English classical economist, a supporter of the labour theory of value; profoundly influenced Karl Marx.' So your slightly arrogant "Hint. They were'nt French" kind of falls flat in this context. Even Marx himself made it clear that they had invented nothing. Taro