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Politics : View from the Center and Left -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: quehubo who wrote (69307)	5/30/2008 9:10:29 AM
From: Dale Baker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 542004

Why demand that everyone march in lockstep with identical gestures dictated by the federal legislature? The second that legislature starts mandating gestures you don't like on issues you don't like to symbols you don't like, you and everyone else on the right will be screaming bloody murder about violations of your freedoms by the evil politicians in Washington. That's the insidious appeal of abusing power in Washington. It feels so good when you can do it for your side, that everybody ends up doing it once they are in power. Every American has an inalienable right to decide what their own speech should be. That is drastically more important than trying to mandate herd behavior on symbolic occasions to make one group feel better.

To: quehubo who wrote (69307)	5/30/2008 9:14:27 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 542004

For some people such gestures smack of fascism. Any fascist can salute a flag or wear a pin- and in fact, they love doing that. Watch any film from communist China, or the USSR, or Nazi Germany- they ALL have their hands in the right place for their various salutes. It's not like every Evil Empire can't salute. The whole point of being in a "free" country is you CAN demonstrate your patriotism in other ways- ways fascists and communists can't even begin to dream about, since they don't have any freedom. You want Obama to "sensitively" do what every one else is doing (even though "everyone" isn't really doing it)- because you want to complain about Obama. If you didn't have the flag pin and the national anthem thing (which is ridiculous, and I'd never heard of it before this flap)- you'd be complaining about the angle of his head while he says the pledge, or the fact that he doesn't open his mouth wide enough to sing. You don't like the guy- that's fine, we all get that. But complaining about stuff like this just makes your dislike look silly. I'm sure you have better things to complain about, and your cause would probably be better served if you complained about those more sensible things. Your complaints about flag pins and anthems will play well only with the folks who weren't going to vote for Obama anyway- I assume you'd like to reach a wider audience, but maybe you wouldn't. At any rate, carry on.

To: quehubo who wrote (69307)	5/30/2008 1:33:43 PM
From: Lane3	Respond to of 542004

Someone who is running for the President's office should be a bit more sensitive to the customs of the nation and most of the citizens. What's this "most of it's citizens" bit? Watch the Celtics/Pistons's pregame tonite and see how many hands are on hearts. See how many people are even stopped and paying attention, for that matter. Your "most" is a small cultural subset.

To: quehubo who wrote (69307)	5/30/2008 3:47:04 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 542004

Hello my old friend quehubo. I read some of your posts on Obama and the flag pin and his anthem protocol (it wasn't, I believe, the flag salute). Regardless of whether it was the anthem or the flag salute, you ask the question: "Obama said he demonstrates patriotism in other ways, why exclude this one?" I can't articulate the "why" very well but for years I've felt uneasy about saluting the flag and I would never wear a flag pin. I was president of our school board during the start of the Iraqi war and we saluted the flag at the start of every meeting. I stood in respect but I couldn't bring myself to put my arm across my chest. I remembered too well all the people who had sent, and were sending, our soldiers into questionable wars while using their overt patriotism as a hammer to club those who disagreed. That view has been reinforced time and again by the hypocritical actions of those who have saluted most crisply, worn the flag most conspicuously and then turned out to be the worst kind of chicken hawks. Many of them have used the flag as a weapon against thoughtful Americans who had dared to question alleged "patriotic" actions. And in many, many instances it turned out that not only had they been personally hypocritical but also that they had been terribly wrong in the policies they advanced. So, although I think this is a great country founded on great principles, I distrust people who conspicuously wrap themselves in either religion or the flag. Those "my team" emotions can drive us to do great things, sometimes great good things and sometimes great bad things. Bad things like creating a climate for starting and continuing the war in Iraq, stifling those who would question the policies of our national leadership, or attacking the character of those who see a different path for America. And I don't feel I need to wear a flag pin or to salute the flag to prove I'm a proud, thinking, American. In fact I think that wearing a flag pin and overtly demonstrating patriotism as an end in itself has been largely conscripted by chicken hawk types of people and I don't want to be seen as joining their club. Finally, although I love the principles that America was founded upon; such things as equality, relatively free choice, justice, democracy, tolerance .... I guess you could say that I'm a cautious patriot. Or maybe I'm just a contrarian. Ed