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Politics : Politics of Energy -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Sam who wrote (3300)	12/2/2008 4:48:24 PM
From: Brumar89	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 86352

realclimate.org is not "propaganda," it may be underwritten by Fenton (I don't know), but its contributors are all scientists who are almost always specialists who are writing about topics that they have published on in peer reviewed publications. They're hired guns, like they claim the "skeptics" are. Realclimate only posts things that go the "correct" way. There are other factors besides CO2 that are at work w/r/t climate. No one pretends otherwise. There certainly are. But at bottom, its manmade CO2 that is claimed that really matters. Glacial ice melts, lowering the albedo of the poles, leading to higher temperatures and more melting leading to higher temperatures and more melting. It also leads to freshening of the North Atlantic, which may lead to slowing of the ocean's thermohaline circulator which may lead to less heat being transferred to the poles which would mean a cooling of the polar regions, counteracting the heat from the CO2 and the lower albedo. Is anything unprecedented really happening at the higher latitudes? Things are always changing and people can pick out this or that change and say of it, that its a sign of some new change. Now they say, Arctic ice is melting, while Antarctic ice is growing. About other glaciers, the Alpine glaciers are shrinking now, but are bigger than they were in Roman times. And 7000 ya, there were NO glaciers in the Alps. The Alpine glaciers are shrinking, that much we know. But new research suggests that in the time of the Roman Empire, they were smaller than today. And 7,000 years ago they probably weren't around at all. ..... "A few thousand years ago, there were no glaciers here at all," he says. "Back then we would have been standing in the middle of a forest." He digs into the ground with his mountain boot until something dark appears: an old tree trunk, covered in ice, polished by water and almost black with humidity. "And here is the proof," says Joerin. .... And he is coming to an astonishing conclusion. The fact that the Alpine glaciers are melting right now appears to be part of regular cycle in which snow and ice have been coming and going for thousands of years. The glaciers, according to the new hypothesis, have shrunk down to almost nothing at least ten times since the last ice age 10,000 years ago. "At the time of the Roman Empire, for example, the glacier tongue was about 300 meters higher than today," says Joerin. Indeed, Hannibal probably never saw a single big chunk of ice when he was crossing the Alps with his army. The most dramatic change in the landscape occurred some 7,000 years ago. At the time, the entire mountain range was practically glacier-free -- and probably not due to a lack of snow, but because the sun melted the ice. The timber line was higher then as well. .... spiegel.de But yes, I do believe that if do nothing about it and keep burning coal like we have been, then bad things--very bad things--for human beings and many other living creatures will be set in motion. And I think you've been sold a bill of false goods. At any rate, it doesn't matter. Countries like China are not going to stop burning coal, no matter if we do or not. But one correction to your statement "I only know the observations we have of CO2 changes and temperature." No you don't "know" that; you are being as simpleminded about that as you accuse me of being about CO2. Even realclimate admitted the ice core observations. Yes, CO2 is washed out by rain. Perhaps I should have been more "technical." The way it happens is that CO2 and water vapor form a weak form of carbonic acid. Its not really washed out. A little CO2 bonds with H2O to make carbonic acid. Doesn't happen just in the atmosphere. Decomposing plant material adds CO2 to groundwater as well. I am getting tired of replying to someone who seemed at first like he knew at least a little bit, but apparently is just being obstinately ignorant. Ah yes, the failure of argument leads to insults. I'm willing to reply to someone who wants to read, think and reason You're saying people who believe the things you believe are intelligent and those don't are stupid. I'm sure that is a comforting, doubt-dismissing belief.