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Pastimes : Discussion Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (3408)	4/23/2009 3:06:04 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 3816

Sometime atheism is defined so broadly as to include beliefs that IMO should be called agnosticism. Agnosticism is "not believing in God" (or in the idea that there is no God.) Atheism is the belief that no God/god/gods/divine force,supernatural creator etc. Theism, deism, and atheism all are specific beliefs. They don't need a defense really need a defense, people are free to believe whatever, for whatever reason they want or for no particular reason they can identify. But at least there is something specific to defend, or to try to convince others to believe. Agnosticism is a lack of any belief on the "God issue", except perhaps the subset of agnosticism that isn't just "I don't know", but believes "the answer is unknowable".

To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (3408)	4/23/2009 11:07:16 PM
From: Brumar89	Respond to of 3816

You have asked me for evidence of the existence of God? Guess I've forgotten that. Also you asked me for evidence in an attempt to educate me? Hmm. That would seem a strange way of educating someone. But since you have now expressed a desire for me to supply you evidence ..... consider this - straight off the top of my head: The creation of the universe finely tuned in very numerous to allow life to exist. That this is the case you can verify by consulting numerous physicists - among them Paul Davies. The fine tuning is so extraordinarily unlikely to happen by chance that Discover magazine said we have a choice of either an intelligently designed universe or a multiverse (actually infinityverse where each universe is uniquely different from all the rest for unknown reasons). The finding that life is based on symbolically encoded information, encoded in chemical bonds, with nano-machinery (the ribosome and the term I used is not an allegory) designed to read the encoded information and use it to build proteins. That there is no idea of how such a system of encoding, plus the information, plus the machinery necessary to interpret and use the information could have begun by chance or some natural cause. The above things are pretty good evidence of a being which wants life to exist and actually created a universe for it to exist in. The existence of consciousness and all that comes with it. The fact that we are sitting here talking about the matters we are - there is no reason why creatures that are cousins to chimps should be doing this. The universal nature of religion among human beings. Related to the consciousness noted above. The existence of an awareness of good and evil in humans - also a universal trait. Even atheists who argue agaisnt god base their arguments on moral grounds ... that God is "not great" ie is cruel as Hitchens does. Even a would be materialist uses moral arguments (the existence of which undercuts his argument btw). A godless materialist universe shouldn't produce beings who even understand morality much less expect the universe to relect it. The above only deals with evidence of the existence of a god. ---------------------- Now as to Jesus - something else you wanted evidence of. The resurrection. Wholly unexpected by Jesus followers by their own testimony - btw I've addressed elsewhere the conclusion of modern scholars that the NT is based on eyewitness testimony - and coming at a time of dejection and sorrow. Yet hundreds of people who knew Jesus including his own family members testified that he rose from the dead. Many of these went on to be martyred for spreading the word. How can one explain the transformation of Jesus small band of dejected and dispirited followers into a band of missionaries who rapidly spread the word of Jesus resurrection around and past the Roman empire. Clearly something transformed them. Something really dramatic and profound. Like witnessing the resurrected Christ. When talking about transformation, its not just in those times that transformation of persons occurs. It occurs every day. Take the former hate-filled KKK member I posted about today: news.yahoo.com Or consider the testimony of Orson Bean: powerlineblog.com There are numerous examples of this. Somewhere I recently read of a former Iraqi Sunni militia leader who converted to Christ and is now a minister there. Anyway, I'm going to cut if off here for tonight.