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Politics : View from the Center and Left -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Katelew who wrote (112043)	5/27/2009 2:47:18 PM
From: Dale Baker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 541595

How can a pastor say to such a couple I don't approve of your relationship and won't perform a marriage ceremony for you without opening the door to litigation? Remember that doctors have been forced by the courts in certain states to provide fertility treatments to lesbian couples even though there were other clinics in the area that were willing to do the same treatments. Can you cite a case where a church was successfully sued for failing to provide a religious rite to someone based on discrimination? Not medical services or other charitable services, but religious rites like marriage. I don't think the concept exists in western law. Churches are private institutions free to make up whatever rites they believe in as long as they don't involve harm to others. The problem churches have trying to fight the validation of homosexuals is that they are the minority in this case, trying to impose their will on the majority and specifically a class of people they don't even want in their churches. Sooner or later, the electorate will walk all over the last formal vestiges of this prejudice and leave it on the dump heap of history along with all the others. The younger end of that electorate doesn't share the prejudices of their elders.

To: Katelew who wrote (112043)	5/27/2009 3:11:22 PM
From: Suma	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 541595

Katelaw The passing of 'gay marriage' laws serves to validate the homosexual sex itself, don't you think? This cuts the legs out from under any church that I think of posters on this board as married and heterosexual. I do not think of it validating whatever sexual practices they perform in their love. It needs to be the same with homosexual persons. The sex act is only one part of love. Companionship, respect,loyalty and other more euphoric words illustrate what a relationship is for me. It also includes rights. Ones rights to share in the same benefits as other citizens. The Bible can be interpreted many ways. The religion people practice differ in many beliefs. It pains me when one thinks of validating homosexual sex represents gays. There is more to life than that.

To: Katelew who wrote (112043)	5/27/2009 4:05:47 PM
From: Travis_Bickle	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 541595

"So the other reason is that 'gay marriage' opens the door to discrimination lawsuits against any church that (1) refuses to acknowledge a gay couple as married or (2) refuses to perform the wedding ceremony." The first time I got married I tried to get a Rabbi to perform the ceremony at a local synagogue. He asked "Are you Jewish?" I responded "No I was baptized Catholic but I worship Thor, God Of Thunder" He asks "How about your fiancee, is she Jewish?" I said "I don't know, I just met her last night at the strip club" Dude had the gall to refuse to perform the ceremony. I looked long and hard for a basis to sue him to hell and back but I couldn't find one.

To: Katelew who wrote (112043)	5/27/2009 5:29:24 PM
From: Sam	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 541595

So the other reason is that 'gay marriage' opens the door to discrimination lawsuits against any church that (1) refuses to acknowledge a gay couple as married or (2) refuses to perform the wedding ceremony. Many--perhaps even most--rabbis won't perform a wedding for a Jew and a non-Jew, and they don't get sued. Some won't even perform a a wedding between two Jews if certain strictures aren't followed. If that is indeed the reason that Mormons or others don't approve of gay marriage, then they are simply wrong. No one forces any one minister, priest or rabbi to marry specific couples.

To: Katelew who wrote (112043)	5/31/2009 2:13:29 AM
From: Cogito	Respond to of 541595

>>I can't speak for all, of course, but some churches are opposed to gays having equal status for two reasons. One is that gay couples will then have a legal basis for demanding that all adoption agencies place children with them. You may recall that Catholic Charities was sued in Massachusetts on the basis of adoption discrimination and was forced to shut down in that state. It was this event that spurred the Mormon Church into action in CA. Normally, it's a rather apolitical church and holds strongly to the separation of church and state. But it also wants to hold onto its ability to determine who has membership in its church and where its adoptible children go. So the other reason is that 'gay marriage' opens the door to discrimination lawsuits against any church that (1) refuses to acknowledge a gay couple as married or (2) refuses to perform the wedding ceremony.<< Kate - As others have pointed out, there's a difference between an adoption agency that is sponsored by a church and the church itself. The Constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion, so I can't imagine anyone successfully suing a church for not performing a wedding ceremony, whatever the reason the church might have for refusing to perform it. Essentially, I think that argument doesn't hold water. In any case, though that kind of self interest might be a logical reason for a church to oppose gay marriage, it isn't a logical reason for the state to deny homosexuals the right to marry. - Allen

To: Katelew who wrote (112043)	5/31/2009 2:20:11 AM
From: Cogito	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 541595

>>The passing of 'gay marriage' laws serves to validate the homosexual sex itself, don't you think? This cuts the legs out from under any church that continues to preach against and deny membership to gays on the basis of immorality. << Kate - I wanted to respond to this part of your post, too. First off, the consumption of alcoholic beverages is legal throughout the United States, with the exception of a few "dry" areas. But that doesn't stop some churches from preaching against drinking. As for validating homosexual sex, well, I don't think what people do in private is anybody else's business, and the state's sanction of their marriage has nothing to do with it. A heterosexual married couple might enjoy S&M or bondage. Does the legal recognition of their marriage validate S&M? - Allen