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To: Hawkmoon who wrote (271546)11/17/2009 4:02:10 PM
From: SARMAN  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hey Hawk, killing Muslim is much more important to you than feeding Americans. "attaboy"

America's economic pain brings hunger pangs
USDA report on access to food 'unsettling,' Obama says


By Amy Goldstein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 17, 2009

The nation's economic crisis has catapulted the number of Americans who lack enough food to the highest level since the government has been keeping track, according to a new federal report, which shows that nearly 50 million people -- including almost one child in four -- struggled last year to get enough to eat.

At a time when rising poverty, widespread unemployment and other effects of the recession have been well documented, the report released Monday by the U.S. Department of Agriculture provides the government's first detailed portrait of the toll that the faltering economy has taken on Americans' access to food.

The magnitude of the increase in food shortages -- and, in some cases, outright hunger -- identified in the report startled even the nation's leading anti-poverty advocates, who have grown accustomed to longer lines lately at food banks and soup kitchens. The findings also intensify pressure on the White House to fulfill a pledge to stamp out childhood hunger made by President Obama, who called the report "unsettling."

The data show that dependable access to adequate food has especially deteriorated among families with children. In 2008, nearly 17 million children, or 22.5 percent, lived in households in which food at times was scarce -- 4 million children more than the year before. And the number of youngsters who sometimes were outright hungry rose from nearly 700,000 to almost 1.1 million.

Among Americans of all ages, more than 16 percent -- or 49 million people -- sometimes ran short of nutritious food, compared with about 12 percent the year before. The deterioration in access to food during 2008 among both children and adults far eclipses that of any other single year in the report's history.

Around the Washington area, the data show, the extent of food shortages varies significantly. In the past three years, an average of 12.4 percent of households in the District had at least some problems getting enough food, slightly worse than the national average. In Maryland, the average was 9.6 percent, and in Virginia it was 8.6 percent.

The local and national findings are from a snapshot of food in the United States that the Agriculture Department has issued every year since 1995, based on Census Bureau surveys. It documents Americans who lack a dependable supply of adequate food -- people living with some amount of "food insecurity" in the lexicon of experts -- and those whose food shortages are so severe that they are hungry. The new report is based on a survey conducted in December.

Several independent advocates and policy experts on hunger said that they had been bracing for the latest report to show deepening shortages, but that they were nevertheless astonished by how much the problem has worsened. "This is unthinkable. It's like we are living in a Third World country," said Vicki Escarra, president of Feeding America, the largest organization representing food banks and other emergency food sources.

"It's frankly just deeply upsetting," said James D. Weill, president of the Washington-based Food and Action Center. As the economy eroded, Weill said, "you had more and more people getting pushed closer to the cliff's edge. Then this huge storm came along and pushed them over."

Obama, who pledged during last year's presidential campaign to eliminate hunger among children by 2015, reiterated that goal on Monday. "My Administration is committed to reversing the trend of rising hunger," the president said in a statement. The solution begins with job creation, Obama said. And he ticked off steps that Congress and the administration have taken, or are planning, including increases in food stamp benefits and $85 million Congress just freed up through an appropriations bill to experiment with feeding more children during the summer, when subsidized school breakfasts and lunches are unavailable.

In a briefing for reporters, Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack said, "These numbers are a wake-up call . . . for us to get very serious about food security and hunger, about nutrition and food safety in this country."

Vilsack attributed the marked worsening in Americans' access to food primarily to the rise in unemployment, which now exceeds 10 percent, and in people who are underemployed. He acknowledged that "there could be additional increases" in the 2009 figures, due out a year from now, although he said it is not yet clear how much the problem might be eased by the measures the administration and Congress have taken this year to stimulate the economy.

The report's main author at USDA, Mark Nord, noted that other recent research by the agency has found that most families in which food is scarce contain at least one adult with a full-time job, suggesting that the problem lies at least partly in wages, not entirely an absence of work.

The report suggests that federal food assistance programs are only partly fulfilling their purpose, although Vilsack said that shortages would be much worse without them. Just more than half of the people surveyed who reported they had food shortages said that they had, in the previous month, participated in one of the government's largest anti-hunger and nutrition programs: food stamps, subsidized school lunches or WIC, the nutrition program for women with babies or young children.

Last year, people in 4.8 million households used private food pantries, compared with 3.9 million in 2007, while people in about 625,000 households resorted to soup kitchens, nearly 90,000 more than the year before.

Food shortages, the report shows, are particularly pronounced among women raising children alone. Last year, more than one in three single mothers reported that they struggled for food, and more than one in seven said that someone in their home had been hungry -- far eclipsing the food problem in any other kind of household. The report also found that people who are black or Hispanic were more than twice as likely as whites to report that food in their home was scarce.

In the survey used to measure food shortages, people were considered to have food insecurity if they answered "yes" to several of a series of questions. Among the questions were whether, in the past year, their food sometimes ran out before they had money to buy more, whether they could not afford to eat nutritionally balanced meals, and whether adults in the family sometimes cut the size of their meals -- or skipped them -- because they lacked money for food. The report defined the degree of their food insecurity by the number of the questions to which they answered yes.

washingtonpost.com

Comment: It is sad that we can find the money to kill Muslims and bailout the banksters, but we can't find the money to feed our people.



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (271546)11/17/2009 4:24:38 PM
From: cnyndwllr1 Recommendation  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hawkmoon, that's a thoughtful post and I'll get around to answering it soon.

In the meantime, however, do you recall the question I asked you several times without an answer?

"What do you think the role of the generals versus the President ought to be with respect to the decisions pending in Afghanistan?

Specifically, would you want the generals or the president to decide if the war was winnable at a cost the nation should pay? And, if so, or if not, what factors would you consider relevant in that determination?

I ask because the question is, in my view, much too complex to dismiss based on the simplistic assertion that military men know more about fighting wars and therefore the president should defer to them on to how to proceed in Afghanistan."


Well on the View From the Center thread Dale Baker posted an interesting perspective on several aspects of that question:

<<<<<
From: Dale Baker 11/17/2009 1:36:57 PM
of 124977

Democrats – Don’t be misled. The media is going to call Obama’s new Afghan strategy a “betrayal” of the Democratic base – but it’s not. It’s actually a decisive rejection of the Republican/Neo-Conservative strategy of the “Long War”

When Obama presents his new strategy for Afghanistan in the next few days it is inevitable that many in the press will describe it as a profound betrayal of the Democratic “base”. Obama will face fierce criticism from many progressive and anti-war Democrats who will consider his decision to significantly increase the number of troops as representing a complete capitulation to the military and Republican neoconservatives.

This reaction is understandable, but it is actually profoundly wrong. At the same time that Obama’s plan will authorize additional troops, his new strategy already represents a powerful repudiation of the fundamental Bush/neoconservative strategy and a historic reassertion of civilian control over the military after 9/11.

For many Democrats – those who do not carefully follow the cloistered and jargon-filled “inside the beltway” debates over counter-terrorism and military strategy -- this assertion will seem utterly and patently absurd -- how can a decision that significantly increases troop levels in Afghanistan possibly also represent a challenge to a militaristic strategy?

In order to understand why this apparent paradox actually makes sense it is necessary to view the specific issue of Afghanistan in two larger contexts --- the overall strategic debate about how to conduct the long-term “war on terror” and the proper relationship between the President and the military. The fundamental conflict that has been going on between, on the one hand, the Obama administration and the Republican/neoconservatives and the military on the other has actually been over these two larger strategic questions and not over the precise number of troops to send to Afghanistan. The size of the proposed troop increase in Afghanistan is only a single sub-issue within a much larger debate over what American military strategy and policy should be for the next ten, twenty and even fifty years.

On one side is the perspective that is variously called the Global War on Terror, World War IV or simply The Long War”. It is widely shared among Republicans and neoconservatives and is supported by a major sector of the military establishment.

This view was codified in the period immediately after 9/11. Its central premise is that military operations aimed at hunting down individual terrorists and dismantling specific terrorist organizations are totally inadequate – indeed almost worthless -- in dealing with the threat of global terrorism. It is only by fundamentally transforming the societies of the Muslim world – by introducing U.S. style political institutions and orienting their societies and economies toward the west and the global economy – that the roots of Islamic terrorism can be undermined.

This was the underlying basis on which the Bush administration decided to invade Iraq rather than maintain the focus on Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden. In the “Long War” perspective, if “regime change” and cultural transformation could be engineered in Iraq -- and after that Iran -- then more peripheral Muslim countries like Afghanistan would almost effortlessly fall into line.

In the initial plan for Iraq it was assumed that once Saddam Hussein was overthrown the people of Iraq would very quickly embrace western institutions and values with only minimal, top-level, direction from the occupation authorities. During the period from 2002-2004, in fact, the coalition authorities efforts were focused on building a massive network of military bases that were planned as a permanent hub for the projection of U.S. air and land forces over the entire region – and particularly as the launching pad for operations aimed at Iran.

By 2005, as Iraq continued to sink into chaos, it became clear that this “laissez-faire” military approach was not working and that a much more direct “hands-on” strategy was needed. The doctrine of “counterinsurgency” – an approach that had been employed by the British in India, China, Iraq, Afghanistan and Malaya, by the French in Algeria and by the U.S. in Vietnam and Central America -- was brought up to date in the “US Army-Marines Counterinsurgency Field Manual” and applied in the urban areas of Iraq.

As outlined in the Field Manual, a counterinsurgency strategy has two basic elements:

1. Heavy concentrations of troops must establish clear control over particular neighborhoods or areas.

In largely urban Iraq this involved building high concrete walls and barriers to separate ethnic neighborhoods and the establishment of elaborate systems of checkpoints, identity cards and frequent searches of vehicles and individuals. More recently in Afghanistan – in the small farming community of Nawa, for example -- it has involved constant foot patrols though the streets by U.S. troops – two patrols a day – by every single one of the 36 squads in the 1,100 man battalion.

2. U.S. forces must take major overall responsibility for managing the local economy and physical infrastructure of a particular area.

The Counterinsurgency Field Manual specifically lists four major objectives U.S. forces must try to provide (1) Security from intimidation, coercion, violence and crime; (2) Provision of basic economic needs, (3) Provision of essential services such as water, electricity, sanitation and medical care; (4) Sustainment of key social and cultural institutions.

Just within the category of “essential services”, the detailed list of the objectives needed for success is startling –

• criminals detained
• timely response to property fires
• water treatments plants functioning
• electrical plants open
• power lines intact
• all schools open, staffed, supplied
• roadways and bridges open
• hospitals and clinics open and staffed
• trash collected regularly
• sewage system operating

There are similarly detailed lists for security, governance and economic development.

Progressive Democratic critics of counterinsurgency doctrine have noted that for all practical purposes this two-pronged strategy is identical to that which was followed by British colonial forces in the period of the British Empire – and leading counterinsurgency advocates do not seriously disagree. In his book “The Accidental Guerrilla” , David Kilcullen, one of the major strategists behind current counterinsurgency thinking, describes the approach as a “temporary” form of colonialism and John Nagl – one of the three authors of the Counterinsurgency Field Manual -- wryly notes that the doctrine can reasonably be criticized as “neocolonialism dressed up in PowerPoint”.

But in one key respect modern counterinsurgency significantly differs from its colonial predecessors. In Britain during the period of the empire there was broad social consensus on the need to maintain large and permanent garrisons of British troops around the world and a willingness by the large majority of the British population to accept the massive expense and continuing flow of casualties that this entailed.

In America there is no such consensus and – although in seminars and conferences counterinsurgency theorists openly discuss the need for Americans to accept massive troop deployments and huge military expenditures for many decades to come -- they and the largely Republican politicians who support this view do not try to openly and honestly convince the American people to support this long-range perspective. Rather, they tend to follow a more circumspect strategy. They define the overall mission of a counterinsurgency strategy in very broad and general terms --“shield the population from violence and coercion”, “create a vibrant economy, political participation and restored hope” -- and then engage in a prolonged, essentially perpetual series of lobbying campaigns to gradually increase the number of troops as each partial troop infusion proves inadequate to achieve these near-utopian goals.

In the case of Afghanistan, by the time Obama was elected the leading counterinsurgency strategists were already quite clear in stating that a genuinely successful campaign to pacify the country would require at least 300,000 troops and would need to last for a period of 10 to 15 years.

The initial troop request given to Obama in March 2009, however, was only for 17,000 additional troops and lacked any clear acknowledgement that this number would be totally inadequate in the long run. On the other hand, the statement of the mission these troops were tasked with carrying out was breathtakingly ambitious – “Our counterinsurgency strategy must integrate population security with building effective local governance and economic development. We will establish the security needed to provide space and time for stabilization and reconstruction activities.”

In truth, there was not a single counterinsurgency expert in America who genuinely believed that this mission could actually be carried out with the number of additional troops requested. However, as David Kilcullen told David Ignatius at the time “we should use the extra 17,000 troops to stabilize the situation but delay the big decision about escalation until after Afghanistan’s presidential election in August.”

Circumstances in Afghanistan, however, changed for the worse. Even as the newly appointed commander Stanley McChrystal was preparing his own “commander’s assessment” of the situation – one that would argue that an additional 40,000 troops were needed immediately – and substantially more within 18 months -- a series of military setbacks occurred in June and July and then in August the presidential elections were blatantly stolen, casting serious doubt on the possibility of stabilizing the country.

In response, Obama did something that the “Long-War” advocates had not anticipated. He announced a very public and very detailed top-to-bottom review of the entire strategy – gathering both his civilian and military advisors and consulting with a range of outside experts. His statements clearly suggested that this review would question every aspect of the strategy and might even significantly limit or redefine the mission itself.

Since the “Long War” advocates were accustomed to being able to define the mission of military operations and to choose the strategy within their closed community without any outside interference, this represented a profound threat.

Their response was to leak General McChrystal’s memo, essentially making his request for 40,000 troops and the open-ended mission he defined an official and public statement of the “Long War” position with which Obama would be forced to either agree or disagree. The Republican and neoconservative supporters of the “Long War” strategy then began a two- pronged campaign aimed at forcing Obama to accept the memo’s conclusions without change.

• First, they argued that (as John McCain dramatically but inaccurately put it) “our entire military command supports this approach”. The implication was that, as a civilian, President Obama did not have the necessary expertise nor was it his proper role to second-guess the military experts. This was true not only in regard to specific tactics or operations, but in regard to the overall strategy and even the basic mission the military had defined for itself. In a wide range of editorials, commentaries and speeches Obama’s refusal to immediately sign-off on McChrystal’s strategy was treated as showing a disturbing and even sinister lack of deference and respect for the military.

• Second, the “Long War” advocates argued that there was simply not time for any careful review of our strategy and mission. A review was “wasting time”, “dithering”, “demoralizing the troops” “encouraging our enemies” and so on. The transparently partisan nature of these claims was evident to everyone who remembered that George W. Bush’s strategic review – the review that led to the “surge” -- took over six months to complete, during which time not a single one of the same group of writers and politicians ever raised any similar objections.

The “Long War” advocates hoped that the chorus of attacks would essentially intimidate Obama into quickly endorsing the McChrystal assessment. But Obama refused to be stampeded. Instead, he responded in three ways

• First, he firmly insisted that it was not only his right but his “sacred constitutional duty” as commander in chief to review the strategies proposed by the military and particularly to evaluate and approve the mission that American troops were being asked to perform. To do this properly required evaluating if the proposed mission was realistic -- which in turn required seriously examining everything from the likelihood of successfully training a new Afghan army to deciding how many cities and areas U.S. troops should try to protect.

• Second, Obama essentially “called the bluff” of the critics who predicted disaster if he did not cut short his review and immediately endorse the military proposal. He refused to cut short the process or apologize for taking the time to perform the task that was his responsibility.

• Third, Obama insisted on hearing from a wide range of experts including individuals outside his cabinet and who were opposed to the current strategy. He made it clear that he saw his obligation as being willing to listen openly to all points of view and not limiting his information to “yes-men” as the Bush administration had so dramatically done in formulating its strategy after 9/11.

In fact, Obama’s strategic review has already established four important precedents that will be of profound value for all future Democratic administrations.

1. The mission that is given to American troops is ultimately the responsibility of the President as Commander in Chief. It is not a strictly military decision that a President should be expected to automatically rubber-stamp.

2. The president has every right to review and evaluate the feasibility of missions proposed by the military – in as much scope and detail as he considers necessary -- before approving them.

3. Strategic reviews should be managed to include a wide range of opinions and not just those of any one specific perspective.

4. Other than in cases of genuine and immediate crisis, claims that military plans must be approved without delay are groundless and can be ignored.

This represents a near-catastrophic blow to the basic Republican and neoconservative strategy for subtly dragging America into a decades-long “Long War”. In effect, they tried to stampede Obama into giving his generals the right not only to determine the tactics and strategy for Afghanistan but also to define the mission in any way they pleased -- and he flatly said “no”. This is a major change in the relationship between a Democratic president and the military. The argument that a Democratic president is an incompetent civilian who is obliged to give the military a blank check to define its own mission is categorically rejected.

Based on current reports, Obama’s final decision will approve a significant increase in the number of troops – the exact number depending on the number of major cities to be covered and the degree of protection to be provided for the major road highways. For the many critics who believe that sending large numbers of additional U.S. troops may actually be counter-productive, this is a clear disappointment.

But it is also already clear that Obama’s strategy will do several other important things. It will establish specific criteria for success and failure. It will define the mission in a concrete and specific way that can be openly debated and revised. It will include an explicit “exit strategy” rather than an open-ended commitment.

Obama’s specific plan for Afghanistan may turn out to be right or wrong – there are entirely reasonable and cogent arguments that a smaller military “footprint” could actually enhance our ability to achieve our ultimate objectives more than a larger one. But, in any case, the method Obama has used to reach his decision is one that has profoundly undermined the basic foundations of the strategy neoconservatives have been following to embroil America in a perpetual “Long War” --- an endless series of open-ended, military campaigns that drag on for decades, constantly requiring more and more troops to achieve hopelessly vague and unquantifiable objectives of fundamental social and cultural transformation across the Muslim world.

In fact, years from now, Obama’s strategic review this fall may be seen by historians as the moment when America first began to “step on the breaks” to slow the “Long War” and Progressive and anti-war Democrats should keep this clearly in mind as they express their understandable disappointment and frustration. The basic underlying struggle that has gone on this fall has not really been over the exact number of troops to send to Afghanistan but rather between the advocates of the open-ended “long war” and those who favor a carefully defined and limited mission. In this crucial and fundamental debate Obama has clearly and forcefully embraced the second alternative.

Posted by James Vega on November 17, 2009 10:23 AM>>>>>



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (271546)11/17/2009 11:37:56 PM
From: Garden Rose2 Recommendations  Respond to of 281500
 
Hawk, you state: "Sorry, I can't forget that their unelected government, the Taliban, permitted Al Qaida to train for, and orchestrate and finance, an attack that killed 3,000 Americans (attempting to kill 50,000 in total)."

I think you'd better focus your attention on saving Saudi Arabia, it would be better to occupy SA (remember the hijackers were Saudis)rather than
Taliban country since SA has all the oil. And a western bought democracy works best where there's resources to be plundered. Go to it Hawk, America needs to convert the Wahabi and give them democracy. Go Hawk go, and save em, we need lower gas prices.



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (271546)11/18/2009 12:21:26 PM
From: cnyndwllr2 Recommendations  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hawkmoon, you must have a very naive view of politics in general and the politics of democracies in particular. I say that because there's no other explanation for your posting such ridiculous assertions as:

"You cannot impose democracy, you can only unleash it.

Show me a person who doesn't want to have a say in how they are governed and I'll show you a slave.

Furthermore, when a government is elected, the decisions that government makes represent the entire population as a whole, for better or worse. When a government is UNELECTED, it's policies represent only those of the ruling elite, yet the entire population suffers the consequences (ie: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Saddam's Iraq, and Afghanistan's Taliban.. etc, etc).

If the people of Afghanistan elect a government which imposes shari'a law, that fine and dandy with me. If they elect a government that decides to wage global (or even regional) Jihad, that's fine with me also, if only because we can now hold the entire population accountable for it's government's decisions.

I was there, in Iraq, when 12 million Iraqis dipped their fingers in ink and voted. It was an amazing display by that population, which had never had a free election in their lifetimes (if ever).
"

Why can't you "impose democracy"? If I go to your country and use overwhelming force to require that your leaders be elected by the votes of whichever of you is willing to vote, isn't that imposing democracy?

And having a say in how you are governed does not necessarily mandate that you desire a democracy. Believe it or not, many people would choose to be governed by a cleric, an emperor, or even a benevolent dictator like the king of Jordan.

Also, why would it be "fine with you" if a country like Afghanistan chose a democratic form of government and then decided to impose Sharia or wage global jihad? What happened to all your Pollyanna cries that you wanted to help the downtrodden masses across the world lead better lives?

Finally, you imply that the elections in Iraq were to choose a democracy. You're wrong, the ink stained fingers of millions of Iraqis didn't "prove" that millions of them wanted democracy. All that "proved" was that given the narrow choice of voting or not voting based on the decisions of Iraqis WE HAD SELECTED AND A CONSTITUTION WE HAD PUSHED ON THEM, they chose to vote because not voting meant that their enemies would own all the power.

So let's get real here; democracies work where there is a culture of justice, a respect for the rule of law and a deep appreciation of the rights of minority races, religions and ethnicities. In nations where there is ethnic, religious and, or, cultural diversity and where the dominant culture does not have strong historical roots in justice, tolerance and non violence, however, the "unleashing" of democracy would be horrific.

Surely even you with your blind, semi-religious worship of "democracy" can fathom that? Ed



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (271546)11/18/2009 12:45:20 PM
From: cnyndwllr2 Recommendations  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hawkmoon, one of your justifications for spending treasure we don't have and sending our young men and women to die is that you:

"don't know of any other alternative except to be involved and to help shape results. Because if we're NOT involved, the results are pretty clear.. Eventually the religious fanaticism, and willingness to maim, murder and die in the name of Allah will cause the moderates to flee, or leave them enslaved.

That was in response to my pointing out that "YOU can't give them a culture of justice nor can you create a willingness to fight and die for freedom in the hearts of the 'moderate' Middle Easterners you so often pimp as your supporters."

You're way off base. The ugly truth is that if you have a majority of moderates who are not willing to fight and die in order to prevent their being governed by men willing to "maim, murder and die in the name of Allah" then the cure is not for us to kill and die for them. The cure is for them to be ruled by those ugly, violent rulers until the day they are no longer "moderates."

When the violence of their rulers has changed them from moderates to freedom fighters, or some other form of "change" fighters willing to fight and die themselves, then that's the day when we can "help" them fight their own battles. Until then we need to stay the hell out of it because it's a waste of lives to send men to fight battles that too few of those we're fighting for will fight themselves.

Think about that. Ed



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (271546)11/18/2009 1:06:40 PM
From: cnyndwllr3 Recommendations  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hawkmoon, some of our discussion is about the philosophical aspects of waging war in Afghanistan but the steel curtain that mandates a new policy is based on practicalities.

Did you see last Sunday's 60 Minutes report on the fighting in Afghanistan? They followed an American unit assigned to patrol for IED's and their report was chilling. These American soldiers risk their lives every day trying to locate mines that cost about $10 dollars to make and that can be planted in a few minutes with relative safety at any time of the night.

They patrol the same few miles of road over and over again with vehicles that cost over a million dollars to build and who knows how much to maintain and transport. In the few days that the news team was there that unit had three guys injured, one of their vehicles badly damaged by an IED and one of their vehicles destroyed.

And their "success" as touted by one of their superior officers...they "found" a few mines. That officer finally admitted that maybe about half the mines had "found" them, but he still said that was a success.

They never "caught or killed" any of the insurgents who planted the mines.

About 75% of the casualties in Afghanistan are from IEDs.

When the reporters asked two of the brave guys who disarm the mines that they do discover what "winning" meant to them, the two guys didn't know what to say. Finally they agreed with each other that winning meant coming home alive.

When the guys doing the dying think winning means coming home alive then you better find a new strategy or bring them home, don't you agree? Ed