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To: mishedlo who wrote (106600)1/16/2010 8:19:16 PM
From: NOW6 Recommendations  Respond to of 116555
 
" the idea that the Fed is purposely causing this mess for the benefit of JPMorgan or whoever is ridiculous IMO." Mish

this is one of the most ridiculous things you have ever written imo. to imagine that the Fed is not acting out of self interest is that height of folly imo; but you frame it as " they are not "causing this". A straw man argument if i ever saw one.
Let see; They help push through laws that enable them to make trillions on the way up. They do so knowing the whole house of cards will certainly come crashing down at some point, but they make sure that when it does they are not stuck holding the bill.

And it directly contradicts yourself when you say this: "like Paulson's coercion, and Geithner's AIG payout. Both were right out in the open."

So PAulson and Geithner are guilty of open aired conspiracy, just not for anyone's benefit?



To: mishedlo who wrote (106600)1/16/2010 8:25:30 PM
From: NOW9 Recommendations  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 116555
 
if you were a fan of occams razor, then you would certainly agree that the simplest explanation for all this is the best: pure unadulterated selfishnesss and greed coupled with excessive nearly unimaginable power.



To: mishedlo who wrote (106600)1/16/2010 9:45:39 PM
From: Webster Groves6 Recommendations  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 116555
 
<but this is my general thesis>

Your thesis is actually a statement of "guilt by association".
You lump all the conspiracy theories together as if they were connected. Now you debunk an example - say manipulation of the price of gold. Presto - problem solved. See it was all in your mind. Your argumentation is actually a simple variant of the ad hominem fallacy. Just because gold may or may not be manipulated says nothing about whether the CIA let Osama bin Laden escape at Tora Bora. I suggest dropping the subject or the thread will fill with endless banter.

wg

PS - Yes, the PPT exists and yes it buys securities via intermediaries in the open market. Do you really believe there is another reason that the DOW is up the last 6 months, perhaps because the constituent stocks were undervalued on a P/E basis ? If you do, you too believe in conspiracies (they go both ways).



To: mishedlo who wrote (106600)1/17/2010 12:58:00 AM
From: Proud Deplorable4 Recommendations  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 116555
 
Say Mish....do you have ANY financial interest in any foreign personal or business account? If so I hope you know that if you don't file your TDF. 90.22-1 by June 30th to Homeland Security then you can lose the accounts and are subject to a possible maximum 500,000.00 fine and 5 years in jail for each account that you don't report and you now must report the exact amount (highest amount for the year) to the dollar.
taxmeless.com

Now what do you think of your country?

Crimson won't mind ...I'm going to post this again so you don't miss it. Since you are read by many on Wall Street and in Washington, I'm waiting for you to openly criticize your government for these invasions of privacy. If you are afraid to do that publicly then stop criticizing those who know for a fact that 9/11 and many other so called terrorist attacks are inside jobs. The only conspiracies I see are perpetrated by your government against all the freedoms you people once enjoyed......yep, every one of them is gone now. Don't believe that? Then make a list of the freedoms you think you still enjoy that make the USA superior to other countries...please go ahead, don't let the truth get in your way.

-----------------------

The Bogus Anti-Terrorist Crackdown on Financial Freedom
by James Bovard, Posted January 15, 2010
In the post–9/11 era, federal officials are treating cash as they would a suspected weapon of mass destruction. They have created legions of new restrictions and reporting requirements for citizens’ money. But the new controls have done nothing to make Washington any more competent at protecting Americans from real threats.

Federal experts estimated that Mohamed Atta and the other 18 hijackers required only about half a million dollars in total financing to carry out their attacks on September 11, 2001. That is a tiny fraction of the trillions of dollars’ worth of currency transactions that occur daily around the world. Terrorism expert Brian Jenkins observed, “Terrorism tends to be a low-budget item. The real resources are fervent young men who are willing to blow themselves to bits.”

But the feds seized upon the attacks to greatly expand intrusions into Americans’ financial affairs. The terrorist attacks instantly endowed George W. Bush with the right to micro-manage world financial institutions — or so the Bush administration apparently believed. And while Treasury Department officials portrayed their decrees as first strikes against “money that kills,” in reality it is almost impossible to determine which dollar bills have homicidal intent.

The USA PATRIOT Act gave the feds the right to financially strip-search every American. It created new financial “crimes without criminal intent” — empowering the Customs Service to confiscate the cash of American travelers who fail to fill out a government form.

Congress redefined the possession of cash to make it sound far more insidious. The PATRIOT Act created a new crime — “bulk cash smuggling” — to punish anyone who doesn’t notify the government of how much money he is taking out of or bringing into the United States (if he is carrying more than $10,000). The PATRIOT Act stated that “if the smuggling of bulk cash were itself an offense, the cash could be confiscated as the corpus delicti of the smuggling offense.” Congress rewrote the law to pretend that money travels by itself and that money commits the crime. And since a stack of cash has no constitutional rights, the government can do no wrong when it seizes the money. (This is based on a medieval legal doctrine known as an in rem proceeding — taking legal action “against the thing.”)

Anti-terrorism rhetoric bedecked the new confiscatory powers. In the PATRIOT Act’s “Findings,” Congress proclaimed that “the movement of large sums of cash is one of the most reliable warning signs of drug trafficking, terrorism, money laundering, racketeering, tax evasion and similar crimes.” Congress also ordained, “The intentional transportation into or out of the United States of large amounts of currency ... is the equivalent of, and creates the same harm as, the smuggling of goods.” Congress did not explain how a person became a smuggler merely by transporting his own money.

The “bulk cash smuggling” provision states that the money cannot be confiscated unless it has been concealed. But “concealment” includes “concealment in any article of clothing worn by the individual or in any luggage, backpack, or other container worn or carried by such individual.” In other words, any traveler with a heap of bills not plopped openly on the airline seat when a G-man walks up to interrogate him is guilty of concealing the money. Violators of the reporting requirement are subject to five years in prison, as well as loss of all their money.

“A dream come true”

The PATRIOT Act contained an array of money-laundering financial-crackdown provisions. The act empowers the U.S. government to penalize anyone in the world who is accused of violating U.S. money-laundering laws. Money Laundering Alert, a pro-government newsletter, hailed the new law:

It is no exaggeration to say that, as a whole, the act has the ability to reach the assets of every financial institution and business in the world and to cripple their [sic] ability to function in a world in which the United States is the financial centerpiece.
If a foreign bank has a single dollar deposited or held in a U.S. bank, or wires a single dollar through the United States, the U.S. government can claim jurisdiction over that bank’s operations anywhere in the world.

And the information that is stockpiled will be shared far and wide. Money Laundering Alert described one financial provision of the PATRIOT Act as a “dream-come-true information gathering tool for U.S. agencies,” extending a “welcome mat to the Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency and other U.S. counterparts” to look at the new financial information on American citizens and others.

The PATRIOT Act greatly increased the feds’ power to investigate Americans’ financial affairs. As Newsweek reported,

Law-enforcement agencies can submit the name of any suspect to the Treasury Department, which then orders financial institutions across the country to search their records for any matches. If they get a “hit” — evidence that the person has an account — the financial in stitution is slapped with a subpoena for the person’s records.
Strippers and the Cuban embargo

Most of the warrantless financial searches the feds have ordered under the PATRIOT Act have had no connection to terrorism. Kevin Bankston of the Electronic Frontier Foundation observed,

There is no probable cause here. There is no judicial oversight. Yet the government can immediately query financial institutions across the nation to find out where you have an account or who you’ve done business with. It’s not just if you have an account there, but any record of a financial transaction.
The feds used PATRIOT Act financial sweep-search powers in 2003 in “Operation G-String,” an investigation of bribes involving Las Vegas strip clubs. Rep. Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.) complained, “It was never my intent to have the PATRIOT Act used as a kitchen sink for all of the law-enforcement-tool goodies that the FBI has been trying to get for the last decades.... It is PATRIOT Act creep.” Berkley was especially indignant that the powers had been used in a tawdry public corruption case: “Never ... did the FBI say we needed additional tools to keep this nation safe from strip-club operators.”

Though the PATRIOT Act vastly increased the feds’ financial surveillance powers, they are not concentrating their artillery on the gravest threats to American security. The Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control has a lead role in tracking down supposedly dangerous money. Unfortunately, this office has ten times more agents assigned to track violators of the U.S. embargo on Cuba than it has tracking Osama Bin Laden’s money. Between 1994 and 2003, it collected almost a thousand times as much in fines for violations of the Cuban embargo as it has for terrorism financing violations ($8+ million versus $9,425).

Rep. William Delahunt (D-Mass.) complained, “We’re chasing old ladies on bicycle trips in Cuba when we should be concentrating on using a significant tool against shadowy terrorist organizations.” Treasury spokeswoman Molly Millerwise responded, “There is no question where the administration stands on Cuba policy. We are equally dedicated to fighting the financial terrorism network.” But to be equally dedicated to spiking Cuban bicycle tours and to thwarting an organization that knocks down American skyscrapers seems a bit demented. Millerwise stressed, “We do focus on Cuba. They are our nearest neighbor.” That raises questions of whether maps used by the Bush administration expunged both Mexico and Canada. However, neither Mexicans nor Canadians will be large voting blocs in elections in Florida.

The war on privacy

The financial war on terror rests on a heap of absurdities. Government crackdowns treat U.S. dollars like plutonium. The only reason for the fixation on absolute control is the notion that any money transfer not controlled by the U.S. government can become “magic beans” that cause terrorism to sprout anywhere in the world. This mindset breeds the presumption that the U.S. government is entitled to assume the worst of anything that it does not control.

It was obvious even before the PATRIOT Act was enacted that the new powers would not make Americans safe. On October 17, 2001, Rep. Ron Paul (R-Tex.) warned that legislation vesting new powers in the feds “has more to do with the ongoing war against financial privacy than with the war against international terrorism” and derided it as “a laundry list of dangerous, unconstitutional power grabs.... These measures will actually distract from the battle against terrorism by encouraging law-enforcement authorities to waste time snooping through the financial records of innocent Americans who simply happen to demonstrate an ‘unusual’ pattern in their financial dealings.”

Ron Paul was right, but almost no one in Washington is ready to admit that truth. If the U.S. government cannot catch enough real terrorists, at least it can use the PATRIOT Act to turn cash-heavy travelers into terrorist scarecrows. For every terrorist who might get caught laundering money, Congress crafted a law that empowers the government to punish thousands of people for breaking the regs. Treasury and Justice Department lawyers made sure the PATRIOT Act was written in a way to maximize seizures, regardless of a person’s guilt or innocence — and then political appointees have portrayed every seizure as a victory against terrorism. But maximizing political brownie points by making terrorist innuendoes is not the same as protecting the public.

There is no reason to expect the U.S. government to be more successful in tracking wads of cash than it has been in tracking bricks of cocaine or bales of marijuana. The end result is more federal control, more intrusions, less privacy — and little or no additional protection from terrorists.

Americans must not permit politicians to continually invoke government failures to justify destroying individual freedom. The financial provisions of the PATRIOT Act will continue haunting Americans until they put enough pressure on Congress to repeal such follies.



To: mishedlo who wrote (106600)1/17/2010 9:52:06 AM
From: skinowski6 Recommendations  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 116555
 
Speaking of conspiracies.... I have a sad personal story. Many years ago a good friend of mine became paranoid. It really was sad - to watch an intelligent, charming, warm person become immersed in conspiracies and worry all the time about various intelligence agencies - when, too obviously, there weren't any to be seen. Eventually, his disease cost him his life.

He was a professor of philosophy, and the contents of his disease were strongly related to philosophy and religion. I couldn't help noticing that, in a certain sense, he was deriving a "secondary gain" as the result of his illness. Before, he was teaching in 2nd rate colleges and was writing articles which no one read. After he got sick, suddenly he could claim God-like powers of vision and wisdom. It was almost as if he had a vested interest in remaining ill. Inner workings of the world have become "clear" to him. He became "enlightened".

I do not think, not by any means, that the vast majority of people who believe in a multitude of various political, economic and other conspiracies are paranoid -- at most, some may have, maybe, certain traits in their personalities which may be conducive to such patterns of thinking.

I still have this in my SI profile -- "Don't believe everything you think!" (-bg).

Are there real conspiracies out there? Probably not as many as many of us would expect. Can you always predict how your wife or your friends will react to certain things? Probably not. To put together a plot involving many strangers - who will be expected to take the secret to their graves - is... very tough.

I think Bernanke is a buffoon but like all academic wonks believes his formulas

This, under Occam's razor, is sufficient to explain many of our society's present and future problems. Arrogance, hubris, excessive reliance on limited understanding and silly models -- those are dangerous qualities, especially when they become so prevalent among nation's leaders.



To: mishedlo who wrote (106600)1/17/2010 3:00:45 PM
From: JBTFD7 Recommendations  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 116555
 
<<all sorts of other nonsense that goes on and on and on for years even though there is virtually no evidence on some of these, and mountains of evidence against some of conspiracies like 911 and the Kennedy Assassination.>>

I think people resent being lied to, and the official position of the "magic bullet" in the Kennedy assassination is just plain nonsensical. The one thing people can intuit is that what is being officially presented to them as the truth is certainly NOT the truth. Under such circumstances what would you expect?

I find it curious that those who readily accept the principle of self interest as presented by Ayn Rand find it so difficult to understand that wealthy interests are going to leverage their bets using whatever means their wealth and power accrue to them. It's human nature.



To: mishedlo who wrote (106600)1/17/2010 3:01:21 PM
From: kormac7 Recommendations  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 116555
 
Mish in drawing examples it is only worthwhile to draw them from those which have the best probative value. It does not serve any purpose to lump the fantastic conspiracies that one can find in the dark corners of the internet with those that reside in more sober minds. You mention often the true unemployment numbers. Do you consider it a "conspiracy" that counting them is not reformed so that more honest numbers are made public? Who is preventing the reform on this score? Are there powerful lobbies
to do it? I just got my social security notice with no increase for this year because the inflation was low. Is using wrong inflation numbers part of a conspiracy to keep the government expenses low?