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Pastimes : JESUS and FINANCIAL FREEDOM -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Dr. Stoxx who wrote (20)	11/4/1997 10:24:00 AM
From: gregor	Respond to of 1283

Dear Thomas: I am truly honored to respond to a professor of religion; as I have stated before I am a simple man with a simple name. BTW any relationship to a Tom Carr with the Promus Corporation; if so we are related by marriage ? As I have stated as Christians we should strive to be poor in spirit; even with great, or some, or little wealth, it will never bring God glory if we are not poor in spirit. Christ called wealthy men, Matthew the tax collector, Luke the doctor, so he has a plan for each of us. Christ did live simply and poorly, never having had posessions, but that enables him to relate to the poor person-- as far as his relating to the rich person--look at the wealth that he left in heaven, the wealth that was already his-- this earth--(all wealth originating from the earth-- lumber , coal, timber, crops, ect-- including people the most valuable asset of all-- for we shall return to dust. ) Money is the root of all evil; NO the "love of money". My main point --Your financial status, the amount of money in your checking account, where you live,what you drive, how much or how little you have has NO Bearing on whether or not you love money and commit this sin. It is just as easy for a poor person to love money as it is for a rich person. God's requirement may be to give more money to one person and take away from another, God is God, he is in control. My prayer for my own life is to have exactly what God intends for me to have, no more ,no less. If I can accept that and be in his will, I know that I am blessed and will be a blessing, and will be at peace and at peace I have reached the state of financial freedom................In Christ.....my brother thank you so very much,please pray for me and the people that God will send our way.............gregor

To: Dr. Stoxx who wrote (20)	11/4/1997 2:12:00 PM
From: O'Hara	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1283

><>...Hi Thomas, I first would like to say that gregor's answer...><> to you is right on. I would like to add to it. You said: "It seems impossible to avoid the conclusion that the purposeful pursuit of wealth and prosperity are counter to the will of God.">>> You are right, it is impossible, however, this forum was not created to teach or advise on the pursuit of wealth. The operative phrase in gregor's title of this forum is "Financial freedom". That is much different than the phrases which you have used,i.e. pursuit of wealth and prosperity. Jesus did not teach per se that it was impossible for a rich man to get to heaven, and He certainly did not intend for us to get from this message, that we should give away our riches for the sake of salvation. Salvation comes only by the grace of God, it is given freely to All who will believe upon the Lord Jesus, rich and poor alike. Jesus's example was brilliant,and in those days it was very understandable,in that there were gates known in those days as needles into all cities which were manned. A traveler coming into the city on a camel loaded down with goods and other stuff could not pass through until the camel got down on all fours and was unloaded. Jesus taught that if one was rich he should be willing to unload his riches for the sake of the kingdom of God. Tithing and giving to the poor is what we are asked by God to do. This is how a christian unloads. It is because of the rich in this country that the poor are able to be sustained. Consider other countries whose govts. are not based on Christian principles. Their poor starve to death, and suffer many other atrocities too numerous too mention. God did not intend for His people to be poor, for if He did, then who would give to them, since there would be no one to give to them. We also have to make a distinction between those who are poor because of choices they have made and continue to make, and those who are poor because of some uncontrolable forces. And then there is of course the perception of poor, and who is defining it. Greed and not giving to help others is what Christians should be very concerned about, and how they attain their riches is all important. If they are attained by using the God given talents and gifts in such a way as to be a productive member of society,then God certainly will bless the fruits therof. Jesus really did know real financial freedom. My Lord Jesus gave up his job as a carpenter to travel and bring the word of God to the people,and He never wanted for anything. John 6:11-13 11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. 12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. 13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. Also consider; Matt 17:27 27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee. When we do the work of God for God there is nothing that He will withold from us...Nothing Thomas The point is that when we have we should give. And too many people in this country are so deep in debt that they cannot give.....And this is the sin of money...Greed,mishandling and ill-gotten gains....This is financial bondage Well that's all for now my friend Have a good day Shalom...><> BTW.. What is your area of interest in Philosophy and religion?

To: Dr. Stoxx who wrote (20)	11/5/1997 10:05:00 PM
From: Matthew B.	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1283

<It seems impossible to avoid the conclusion that the purposeful pursuit of wealth and prosperity are counter to the will of God. Responses?> I think the key is motivation. Whatever separates us from God is wrong. If the stock market separates me from God, then the stock market becomes my Idol (or God). This not only applies to the Stock Market but other things too (e.g. Stereophile Systems, TV, Football games, Girlfriend, Boyfriends, etc). It is interesting to see such a thread on a news group system dealing with stocks. The stock market is moved by greed and fear. These are two emotions which are contrary to God's will (I have had to struggle with both in the stock market). If we are controlled by greed or fear we are not free (we are slaves). Knowing the truth shall set us free. The funny thing is that successful traders seem to have removed greed and fear from the equation. Does this mean that by learning the truth we become better traders. Maybe. Matthew

To: Dr. Stoxx who wrote (20)	11/6/1997 12:43:00 PM
From: Cisco	Respond to of 1283

®It seems impossible to avoid the conclusion that the purposeful pursuit of wealth and prosperity are counter to the will of God¯ TC I agree with your statement only because you used the word "seems". If you had used the word "is" instead, I would have disagreed. Have you ever read Burkett's book, Investing for the Future? He lays out the proposition that there are "only three legitimate reasons to invest money". He goes on to say that "If you are investing for the wrong reasons it's like having your ladder leaning against the wrong building. It won't matter how high you climb, you still end up on the wrong building." Here is a summary of his right reasons for investing: 1. Multiply to Give More He uses the Parable of the Talents (Luke 19:12-26) to make the case that "God entrusts wealth to some of His stewards (managers) so that it will be available to Him at a later date." 2. Meet Future Family Needs He points to Proverbs 6:6-8 as the basis of his conclusion that the family must sacrifice "some short-range spending to meet future needs such as education, housing, or a start in business." I would add to this that I believe those who do not plan for their future because they have "faith" that God will take care of them, are the sluggards mentioned in this verse. I believe it is unChristian to willingly place ourselves in a position where we become a burden on society. 3. Further the Gospel and Fund Special Needs Based upon 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 he lays the case that "if the 'church' is ever to break out of the borrowing habit then Christians who invest must manintain some surpluses and be willing to give to legitimate needs. Just think of the advantage of being able to fund reasonable building programs with-out debt. The interest saved could feed millions of hungry people and fund most of the training for worldwide evangelism." However he concludes from personal observations that the "majority of Christians who engage in speculative investing do so for the wrong reasons". Here are the wrong reasons he list: 1. Greed He notes that "God is our resource, If you lose sight of that truth no amount will ever be enough." - - - "At some point a Christian has to stop and decide why he (or she) is trying to make and store more. I would hate to die and find out that the epitaph on my tombstone read, The Richest Fool in the Cemetery." (Proverbs 15:27) 2. Slothfulness He states that "Often people don't plan well during the earlier years of their lives and consequently, when faced with college expenses for their children or retirement, they panic and try to generate in five years what they should have saved over the previous 20." (Matthew 25:29) 3. Ego Burkett concludes that "Many people, Christians included, invest to bolster their pride and ego. Why else would someone who already has millions of dollars spend countless hours and risk everything he wons to make more? - - - On a lesser scale I have observed individuals who were risking all that they had (and then some) because they were jealous of the success of others they knew." (Proverbs 29:23) 4. The Game of It Here he makes the case that "to some people, making money is simply a game. They have no particular attachment to the money; it's winning that's important to them. In many ways this is perhaps the most destructive of all wrong motives because it becomes an addiction just like alcohol or drugs. Everybody and everything becomes a pawn in the game: family, friends, and even God." (Proverbs 28:6) TC, as I review my investment history by the above standards, I am ashamed at what I see. It is so easy to get rapped up into the wrong motives. And as Larry says, they can become addictive and destructive. One of the wisest men I have ever known retired about 6 years ago. He told me he lived by the 10-10 rule from the first day he went into business. The first 10% went to God's work, the second 10% went to savings, and he lived on what remained. May I add that his parents where also wise. Cisco (Proverbs 21:20)