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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Greg or e who wrote (28322)3/17/2010 12:32:05 PM
From: Solon2 Recommendations  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
"Who do you think is buried in Grant's tomb anyway?

So I guess you are finally agreeing that my header was fitting the shoes on the right feet. Thanks.

"Of course as a materialist, you can't account for any of those immaterial tools"

What immaterial tools?

"you can't account for the rightness of choosing them as opposed to choosing others."

I don't know what you are saying or asking. Can you try to clarify your thought a bit?

"You keep affirming that your morality is in fact NOT based on reason, but on subjective emotional feelings"

No, no, no, no, no. You are misunderstanding. A rational morality is based strictly on reason. The desire part is simply a premise in the argument. Let me help you. It is innate and natural for most humans to avoid pain and to seek comfort and happiness. The purpose of ethical guidelines is therefore to avoid human injury and unhappiness. One way to do this is to live apart from others in which case no ethical guidelines (as relating to right action towards others is necessary). Most people choose to live amongst others in family or community. Partly this is because living in isolation does tend to be painful.

So we start with the need for ethical guidelines and we identify the need as being the fact that people interact with one another and those interactions can further happiness or mitigate happiness. At this basic level of morality, rational (and even stupid people) agree that ahimsa or non-injury is a great moral beginning. (Note that the bible is so primitive that it violates even this most fundamental of ethical beginnings).

Now rational people carry this basic premise somewhat further and they get down to corollaries and details. How can we be happy if we are not free? How can we be happy if people steal our food? How can we be happy if we are not permitted to express our thoughts? How can we be happy if if if.

All rational guidelines are (guess what)...RATIONAL.

"The original critique of Rand and yourself for that matter was that simply declaring happiness and well being as an ultimate moral absolute is completely subjective."

If you wish to say that choosing to live is "subjective" then be my guest! But IF you choose to live then all the rest follows in the most wonderful and unassailable logic!

"there is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence—and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not: it depends on a specific course of action... It is only a living organism that faces a constant alternative: the issue of life or death"

"A typically arrogant response from atheists (the Brights) who think they know what's best for everyone else (the Dulls)"

It wasn't arrogant, at all. Your response is just stupid and dull. You had asked me why I didn't take my own advice (to go to Sunday School). I relied that the advice was intended for you and not for me. To make it clear once again: I don't advice someone looking for shoes to buy a head of lettuce. I advised you to go to Sunday School because you are superstitious and could possibly find something of value in discussing your superstitions. Sunday School would hold no value for me. Do you understand this yet or will you still show confusion in your response?

"is evil (as arbitrarily defined by you), evil?

I use the word "evil" simply out of courteous convention. What falls under the aegis of "evil" is simply actions which are hurtful AND wrong. Rand's philosophy shows clearly and objectively what actions are hurtful AND wrong. There is nothing arbitrary about it.

"An absolute statement if there ever was one"

Absolute statements exist in logic but Godel's incompleteness theory tells us that we cannot claim with certainty that the statement is true. Nevertheless, this is like arguing that we cannot prove that we are not dreaming our life and about to wake up at any moment (and not being able to prove that the waking state is not another dream within a dream).

I think you know very well that our discussion about the ABSOLUTISM (the omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience of God and likewise of moral "oughts") is different than the certainty (absolutism) of certain statements in logic or mathematics. For instance, there are no circles with three equal sides.

When I made reference that "Absolute thinking is the garment of extreme intolerance and human pomposity" I was not attacking philosophers or mathematicians. Rather, I was referring to people who pronounce ultimate truths on supernatural authority which cannot be objectively falsified through logic or experiment. This is the sort of "Absolute thinking" that rational people consider often dangerous and always without value.

"You keep making my points for me"

I have refuted all your points just as I've shown your superstitious beliefs to be childish, irrational, and infantile.



To: Greg or e who wrote (28322)3/17/2010 12:46:10 PM
From: Solon2 Recommendations  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 28931
 
"You are living and operating on the assumptions of other worldviews. In fact the very ones that you love to hate."

Sorry! Wrong again!

"If we want to live, however, we must pursue life-serving values—and we must do so by choice."

"1) Only life makes values possible—since nonliving things cannot pursue values; and

2) only life makes values necessary—since only living things need to pursue values.
"

__________________________________________

"Ayn Rand demanded reasons for her convictions. So should we.

She set out to discover a rational morality—one based on observable facts and logic. Rather than starting with the question “Which of the existing codes of value should I accept?”—she began with the question, “What are values and why does man need them?” This question pointed her away from the established views—and toward the facts of reality.

Looking at reality, Rand observed that a value is that which one acts to gain or keep. You can see the truth of this in your own life: You act to gain and keep money; you value it. You act to gain and keep good grades; you value them. You act to choose and develop a fulfilling career. You seek to meet the right guy or girl and build a wonderful relationship. And so on.

Looking at reality, Rand also saw that only living organisms take self-generated, goal-directed action. Trees, tigers, and people take actions toward goals. Rocks, rivers, and hammers do not. Trees, for example, extend their roots into the ground and their branches and leaves toward the sky; they value nutrients and sunlight. Tigers hunt antelope, and nap under trees; they value food and shade. And people act to gain their values, such as nutrition, education, a career, romance, and so on.

Further, Rand saw that the ultimate reason living organisms take such actions is to further their life. She discovered that an organism’s life is its ultimate goal and standard of value—and that man’s life is the standard of moral value: the standard by which one judges what is good and what is evil. Man’s life—meaning: that which is required to sustain and further the life of a human being—constitutes the standard of moral value.

Now, the validation of the principle that life is the standard of value has a number of aspects, and we don’t have time to consider all of them tonight. For our purposes here, I want to focus briefly on just a few.

By pursuing the question “Why does man need values?”—Ayn Rand kept her thinking fact-oriented. If man needs values, then the reason he needs them will go a long way toward establishing which values are legitimate and which are not. If man doesn’t need values, well, then, he doesn’t need them—and there is no point in pursuing the issue at all. What Rand discovered is that man does need values—and the reason he needs them is in order to live. Life, she discovered, is the ultimate goal of our actions; life is the final end toward which all our other values are properly the means.

Granted, because we have free will we can take antilife actions—and, as we have seen, altruism senselessly calls for us to do just that. But the point is that we don’t need to take antilife actions, unless we want to die—in which case, we don’t really need to take any action at all. We don’t need to do anything in order to die; if that’s what we want, we can simply stop acting altogether and we will soon wither away.

If we want to live, however, we must pursue life-serving values—and we must do so by choice.

Free will enables us to choose our values. This is what gives rise to the field of morality. Morality is the realm of chosen values. But whatever our choices, these facts remain: The only reason we can pursue values is because we are alive, and the only reason we need to pursue values is in order to live.

This two-pronged principle of Rand’s philosophy is essential to understanding how the Objectivist morality is grounded in the immutable facts of reality: (1) Only life makes values possible—since nonliving things cannot pursue values; and (2) only life makes values necessary—since only living things need to pursue values.

Observing reality, we can see that this is true: A rock doesn’t have values. It can’t act to gain or keep things; it just stays still—unless some outside force, such as a wave or a hammer, hits and moves it. And it doesn’t need to gain or keep things, because its continued existence is unconditional. A rock can change forms—for instance, it can be crushed and turned to sand, or melted and turned to liquid—but it cannot go out of existence. The continued existence of a living organism, however, is conditional—and this is what gives rise to the possibility and need of values. A tree must achieve certain ends—or else it will die. Its chemical elements will remain, but its life will go out of existence. A tiger must achieve certain ends, too, or it will meet the same fate. And a person—if he is to remain alive—must achieve certain ends as well.

The Objectivist ethics—recognizing all of this—holds human life as the standard of moral value. It holds that acting in accordance with the requirements of human life is moral, and acting in contradiction to those requirements is immoral. It is a fact-based, black-and-white ethics.

Now, combining the principle that human life is the standard of moral value with the observable fact that people are individuals—each with his own body, his own mind, his own life—we reach another principle of the Objectivist ethics: Each individual’s own life is his own ultimate value. This means that each individual is morally an end in himself—not a means to the ends of others. Accordingly, he has no moral “duty” to sacrifice himself for the sake of others. Nor does he have a moral “right” to sacrifice others for his own sake. On principle, neither self-sacrifice nor the sacrifice of others is moral, because, on principle, human sacrifice as such is immoral.

Human life does not require people to sacrifice themselves for the sake of others; nor does it require people to sacrifice others for their own sake. Human life simply does not require human sacrifice; people can live without giving up their minds, their values, their lives; people can live without killing, beating, robbing, or defrauding one another.

Moreover, human sacrifice cannot promote human life and happiness; it can lead only to suffering and death. If people want to live and be happy they must neither sacrifice themselves nor sacrifice others; rather, they must pursue life-serving values and respect the rights of others to do the same. And, given the role of morality in human life, in order to do so, they must accept the morality that advocates doing so.

In a sentence, the Objectivist ethics holds that human sacrificeis immoral—and that each person should pursue his own life-serving values and respect the rights of others to do the same. This is the basic principle of rational egoism. And the reason it sounds so good is because it is good; it is right; it is true. This principle is derived from the observable facts of reality and the demonstrable requirements of human life. Where else could valid moral principles come from? And what other purpose could they serve?

We can now see why Ayn Rand said, “The purpose of morality is to teach you, not to suffer and die, but to enjoy yourself and live.” Morality, properly conceived, is not a hindrance to a life of happiness; rather, it is the means to such a life."

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