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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: JF Quinnelly who wrote (13564)11/8/1997 10:21:00 AM
From: Grainne  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
Freddy, I disagree that most of what we know about the Celts is conjecture, and would suggest that you actually read (choose any book, or the urls I posted earlier) more about their culture. While you seem to filter most of your knowledge through what the ancient Greeks thought about particular cultures, you might expand your knowledge by studying other sources. Certainly the Brehon laws, some of which I quoted earlier, reveal an advanced culture. I am not sure that the ability to write is always the only sign of civilization, but the sources I have documented show a progression of ancient Irish WRITTEN languages, not the folkloric drivel which you condescendingly assume.

Incidentally, the Spanish Inquisition was one of several. The first one, from several histories I have read, was with the Catharsists in 1184. While the Spanish Inquisition started in what is now Spain, and spread to southern France, there was also the Roman Inquisition, and the general Inquisition across Europe, which according to YOUR source, Robbins in "The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology", gives a conservative estimate of 200,000 people tortured and killed. Robbins, incidentally, asserts like many other scholars, that the Catholic Church demonized people for its own purposes. I think we need to remember, as well, that Satanism is a negative offshoot of Christianity, and has nothing to do with the medieval persecution of innocent victims, or with modern wicca either.

Before 1350, witchcraft primarily meant sorcery, a survival
of common superstitions - pagan only insofar as the beliefs
antedated Christianity, never pagan in the sense of an organized
survival opposition to Christianity or of some pre-Christian
religion. Sorcery or magic is world-wide and world-old; it
is simply the attempt to control nature in man's own interests;
it is the forerunner of religion before priests appropriated
tribal lore for themselves.

"The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology",
-- Rossell Hope Robbins

It is really hard for me to understand where you get your ideas about Christianity being a positive religion for women. In my recent discussions, I quoted urls with numerous quotes from the Bible regarding the negative way in which women are perceived. Anyone with any curiosity at all about the cruel ways women were tortured by Christians during the Middle Ages and the early Renaissance can quickly do a web search and find the graphic, original art from the time. Christianity is a male-dominated religion, and in our mostly Christian America women are the victims of domestic violence in about 50% of marriages. As you may recall, the Catholic Church is more than reluctant to induct women into the priesthood. I also notice that you did not respond to my comment about the Vatican recently admitting complicity with the Nazis in France during World War II. While I have no problems with anyone's religious beliefs, or the comfort they provide, I do not think it is accurate to claim that Christianity has been a totally positive force in history, and certainly not for women and women's rights!!!

I do have trouble understanding what all of the fear is about with female-centered, or goddess, religions. Paganism is not synonymous with evil. Here is a quote from the modern "witch" Starhawk, who is incidentally on the faculty of a Catholic university because she is teaching spirituality as the Jesuits perceive it:

From earliest times,i women have been witches, wicce, "wise ones"-priestesses, diviners, midwives,
poets, healers, and singers of songs of power. Woman-centered culture, based on the worship of the Great
Goddess, underlies the beginnings of all civilization. Mother Goddess was carved on the walls of paleolithic caves,
and painted in the shrines of the earliest cities, those of the Anatolian plateau. For her were raised the giant stone
circles, the henges of the British Isles, the dolmens and cromlechs of the later Celtic countries, and for her the great
passage graves of Ireland were dug. In her honor, sacred dancers leaped the bulls in Crete and composed lyric
hymns within the colleges of the holy isles of the Mediterranean. Her mysteries were celebrated in secret rites at
Eleusis, and her initiates included some of the finest minds of Greece. Her priestesses discovered and tested the
healing herbs and learned the secrets of the human mind and body that allowed them to ease the pain of childbirth, to
heal wounds and cure diseases, and to explore the realm of dreams and the unconscious. Their knowledge of nature
enabled them to tame sheep and cattle, to breed wheat and corn from grasses and weeds, to forge ceramics from
mud and metal from rock, and to track the movements of moon, stars, and sun. Witchcraft, "the craft of the wise," is
the last remnant in the west of the time of women's strength and power. Through the dark ages of persecution, the
covens of Europe preserved what is left of the mythology, rituals, and knowledge of the ancient matricentric
(mothercentered) times. The great centers of worship in Anatolia, Malta, Iberia, Brittany, and Sumeria are now only
silent stones and works of art we can but dimly understand. Of the mysteries of Eleusis, we have literary hints; the
poems of Sappho survive only in fragments. The great collections of early literature and science were destroyed by
patriarchal forces-the library of Alexandria burnt by Caesar, Charlemagne's collection of lore burnt by his son Louis
"the Pious," who was offended at its "paganism." But the craft remains, in spite of all efforts to stamp it out, as a living
tradition of Goddess-centered worship that traces its roots back to the time before the triumph of patriarchy. The old
religion of witchcraft before the advent of Christianity, was an earth-centered, nature-oriented worship that
venerated the Goddess, the source of life, as well as her son-lover-consort, who was seen as the Horned God of the
hunt and animal life. Earth, air, water, fire, streams, seas, wells, beasts, trees, grain, the planets, sun, and most of all,
the moon, were seen as aspects of deity. On the great seasonal festivals-the solstices and equinoxes, and the eves of
May, August, November, and February,-all the countryside would gather to light huge bonfires, feast, dance, sing,
and perform the rituals that assured abundance throughout the year. When Christianity first began to spread, the
country people held to the old ways, and for hundreds of years the two faiths coexisted quite peacefully. Many
people followed both religions, and country priests in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries were frequently upbraided
by church authorities for dressing in skins and leading the dance at the pagan festivals. But in the thirteenth and
fourteenth centuries, the church began persecution of witches, as well as Jews and "heretical" thinkers. Pope
Innocent the VIII, with his Bull of 1484, intensified a campaign of torture and death that would take the lives of an
estimated 9 million people, perhaps 80 percent of whom were women. The vast majority of victims were not coven
members or even necessarily witches. They were old widows whose property was coveted by someone else, young
children with "witch blood," midwives who furnished the major competition to the male-dominated medical
profession, free-thinkers who asked the wrong questions. An enormous campaign of propaganda accompanied the
witch trials as well. Witches were said to have sold their souls to the devil, to practice obscene and disgusting rites,
to blight crops and murder children. In many areas, the witches did worship a Horned God as the spirit of the hunt,
of animal life and vitality, a concept far from the power of evil that was the Christian devil. Witches were free and
open about sexuality-but their rites were "obscene" only to those who viewed the human body itself as filthy and evil.
Questioning or disbelieving any of the slander was itself considered proof of witchcraft or heresy, and the falsehoods
that for hundreds of years could not be openly challenged had their effect. Even today, the word wl'tch is often
automatically associated with "evil." With the age of reason in the eighteenth century, belief in witches, as in all things
psychic and supernatural, began to fade. The craft as a religion was forgotten; all that remained were the wild stories
of broomstick flights, magic potions, and the summoning of spectral beings. Memory of the true craft faded
everywhere except within the hidden covens. With it, went the memory of women's heritage and history, of our
ancient roles as leaders, teachers, healers, seers. Lost, also, was the conception of the Great Spirit, as manifest in
nature, in life, in woman. Mother Goddess slept, leaving the world to the less than gentle rule of the God-Father. The
Goddess has at last stirred from sleep, and women are reawakening to our ancient power. The feminist movement,
which began as a political, economic, and social struggle, is opening to a spiritual dimension. In the process, many
women are discovering the old religion, reclaiming the word wl'tch and, with it, some of our lost culture. Witchcraft,
today, is a kaleidoscope of diverse traditions, rituals, theologies, and structures. But underneath the varying forms is
a basic orientation common to all the craft. The outer forms of religion-the particular words said, the signs made, the
names used-are less important to us than the inner forms, which cannot be defined or described but must be felt and
intuited.

The craft is earth religion, and our basic orientation is to the earth, to life, to nature. There is no dichotomy between
spirit and flesh, no split between Godhead and the world. The Goddess is manifest in the world; she brings life into
being, is nature, is flesh. Union is not sought outside the world in some heavenly sphere or through dissolution of the
self into the void beyond the senses. Spiritual union is found in life, within nature, passion, sensuality-through being
fully human, fully one's self. Our great symbol for the Goddess is the moon, whose three aspects reflect the three
stages in women's lives and whose cycles of waxing and waning coincide with women's menstrual cycles. As the new
moon or crescent, she is the Maiden, the Virgin-not chaste, but belonging to herself alone, not bound to any man.
She is the wild child, lady of the woods, the huntress, free and untamed-Artemis, Kore, Aradia, Nimue. White is her
color. As the full moon, she is the mature woman, the sexual being, the mother and nurturer, giver of life, fertility,
grain, offspring, potency, joy-Tana, Demeter, Diana, Ceres, Mari. Her colors are the red of blood and the green of
growth. As waning or dark moon, she is the old woman, past menopause, the hag or crone that is ripe with wisdom,
patroness of secrets, prophecy, divination, inspiration, power-Hecate, Ceridwen, Kati, Anna. Her color is the black
of night. The Goddess is also earth-Mother Earth, who sustains all growing things, who is the body, our bones and
cells. She is air-the winds that move in the trees and over the waves, breath. She is the fire of the hearth, of the
blazing bonfire and the fuming volcano; the power of transformation and change. And she is water-the sea, original
source of life; the rivers, streams, lakes and wells; the blood that flows in the rivers of our veins. She is mare, cow,
cat, owl, crane, flower, tree, apple, seed, lion, sow, stone, woman. She is found in the world around us, in the cycles
and seasons of nature, and in mind, body, spirit, and emotions within each of us. Thou art Goddess. I am Goddess.
All that lives (and all that is, lives), all that serves life, is Goddess. Because witches are oriented to earth and to life,
we value spiritual qualities that I feel are especially important to women, who have for so long been conditioned to
be passive, submissive and weak. The craft values independence, personal strength, self-not petty selfishness but that
deep core of strength within that makes us each a unique child of the Goddess. The craft has no dogma to stifle
thought, no set of doctrines that have to be believed. Where authority exists, within covens, it is always coupled with
the freedom every covener has, to leave at any time. When self is valued-in ourselves-we can see that self is
everywhere. Passion and emotion-that give depth and color and meaning to human life-are also valued. Witches
strive to be in touch with feelings, even if they are sometimes painful, because the joy and pleasure and ecstasy
available to a fully alive person make it worth occasional suffering. So-called negative emotion-anger-is valued as
well, as a sign that something is wrong and that action needs to be taken. Witches prefer to handle anger by taking
action and making changes rather than by detaching ourselves from our feelings in order to reach some nebulous,
"higher" state. Most of all, the craft values love. The Goddess' only law is "Love unto all beings." But the love we
value is not the airy flower power of the hippies or the formless, abstracted agape of the early Christians. It is
passionate, sensual, personal love, eros, falling in love, mother-child love, the love of one unique human being for
other individuals, with all their personal traits and idiosyncrasies. Love is not something that can be radiated out in
solitary meditation-it manifests itself in relationships and interractions with other people. It is often said "You cannot
be a witch alone"-because to be a witch is to be a lover, a lover of the Goddess, and a lover of other human beings.



To: JF Quinnelly who wrote (13564)11/8/1997 11:12:00 AM
From: Grainne  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
Speaking of the role of the Catholic Church in World War II, here is an interesting opinion:

Holocaust

Part 4: Catholic Reaction To The Nazi Holocaust

By Michael Hakeem, Ph.D.

The specter of Martin Luther was a haunting presence in Nazism and was in attendance at the Holocaust.
Numerous scholars have taken note of that fact.

For example, Professor Robert J. Wistrich, one of the profoundest students of worldwide anti-Semitism, writes:
"The seed of hatred sown by Luther would reach its horrible climax in the Third Reich when German Protestants
showed themselves to be particularly receptive to Nazi antisemitism."

The Lutheran editor of the American translation of Luther's works comments: "It is impossible to publish Luther's
treatise today . . . without noting how similar to his proposals were the actions of the National Socialist regime in
Germany in the 1930's and 1940's." The Nazis would now and then pay tribute to their mentor by staging an event
on a date or at a place associated with him. They declared, for example, that their first large-scale pogrom against
the Jews in November, 1938 was a pious operation performed in honor of the anniversary of Luther's birthday.

To cite but one more example, the installation of Ludwig MYller as Reich Bishop was conducted with great fanfare
in the church at Wittenberg where Luther had preached. Hitler, in Mein Kampf, names Luther as one of the great
heroes of the German people. The historian, Professor Friedrich Heer, is authority for the knowledge that Hitler "was
prepared to concede that Luther had prepared the way for his own work." He quotes Hitler as saying, as early as
1918: "He saw the Jew as we are only now beginning to see him today." (Ominous.)

What was it that Luther offered that made him so attractive to the Nazis? It was a book-length treatise, On the Jews
and Their Lies, in which he gave expression to his unbridled, not to say utterly maniacal, detestation of Jews, and
which contained more than a hint of genocidal intentions toward them. Luther's vehement attacks on the Jews were
frequently recalled and widely disseminated by the Nazis. The original edition of Luther's loathsome volume was
exhibited in a special glass case at party rallies in Nuremberg.

In page after page of Hitler's ranting against the Jews in Mein Kampf, one soon comes to realize that echoes of
Martin Luther are being heard. Julius Streicher, the chief party ideologist of anti-Semitism, argued in his defense at
the Nuremberg trials that he had never said anything about the Jews that Martin Luther had not said four hundred
years earlier.

No paraphrase or brief excerpts can give the full flavor of the seething hatred with which Luther assailed the Jews. It
has to be read to be believed. He can hardly find words vile enough to describe what he apparently believes are
creatures endowed with very little of human qualities. There is no malevolence, crime, immorality, and depravity he
does not attribute to them. He even resorts to gross obscenities.

Luther is not satisfied merely to mouth all this vitriol. He calls on the civil authorities to implement some hideously
cruel measures against the Jews. He recommends that their synagogues be burned. Their houses should be
destroyed and they should be forced to live like Gypsies under one roof or in a stable. Their prayer books and
Talmuds should be taken away from them. Their rabbis should be forbidden to teach, and they should be killed if
they violate the prohibition. They should not be permitted to travel. They should be deprived of all their cash, silver,
and gold. The young and strong, both men and women, should be forced to do hard, menial labor. If, after all this,
the Christians still feel threatened, the Jews should be expelled from the land.

At times, Luther seems as if he is all but calling for a holocaust: "We are at fault in not slaying them."

In their reaction to the Holocaust, the churches, the clergy, the theologians, and Christians at large had an
opportunity to show if there is substance to their claim that only a Christian presence can yield peace, justice, regard
for the preciousness of every human creature, and universal love. Christians were put to the test by Nazism and the
Holocaust and failed miserably. They predominantly allied themselves with the Nazis, and they remained essentially
silent about the major moral issue that confronted them--the staggering abuse, torture, enslavement, and slaughter of
many millions of men, women, and children for no other reason than that they were Jews. An insignificant number,
mighty or humble, spoke out against it.

One embarks on treacherous waters when seeking the truth on this Germanic nightmare. Unless one has a thorough
knowledge of the vast and ever-increasing relevant research and scholarship one can be fed much disinformation.
Christian apologists are fond of citing this or that instance of resistance to Nazism or of some rescue of Jews as
representative of common practice. Indeed, there were such isolated instances but they were just that.

Most important is the larger picture. What did the churches do officially? Were Christians massively opposed to
what the Nazis were doing? Did important church leaders, aroused by Christian reflex, unhesitatingly and unceasingly
publicly condemn the slaughter of the Jews?

Consider the Catholic Church. Only a few months after Hitler came to power, the Vatican joined him in a Concordat
whereby it agreed to recognize the legitimacy of his regime and to abolish all Catholic political and social
organizations in Germany in return for some concessions to the Church which Hitler proceeded very soon to
disregard.

The Concordat had stifling effects on any possibility of protest, and it served to confirm the propriety of support of
the regime by millions of Catholics. The eagerness with which the Vatican came to terms with the Hitler regime could
be expected from the history of its penchant for "forging diplomatic links with conservative or even fascist regimes
[because] it found most aspects of right-wing regimes congenial," to convey the point in the words of Professor of
History Michael R. Marrus.

Professor Friedrich Heer, in his magnificently researched God's First Love, backs him up, as do many other
historians. Heer gives a lengthy and vivid account of the political leanings (anti-democratic, anti-liberal, anti-Semitic,
anti-enlightenment) of Catholicism and the Church's leaders. It is this that led them swiftly into the Nazi fold and,
once in, kept them from opposing even the extermination of the Jews. Supporting his conclusions with copious
excerpts from Catholic publications, Heer shows the extraordinary support the Church gave the Nazi regime as well
as its wars, which most historians regard as flagrantly aggressive and monumentally unjust. He observes: "Catholic
theologians rightly discovered many affinities between Nazi ideology and Catholicism. . . . Many church papers . . .
became virtually propaganda organs of National Socialism." Heer finds that "the [Catholic] press worked smoothly in
the service of the war propaganda machine."

If Christianity is the only dependable bulwark against human cruelty and depravity, tyranny and unmitigated slaughter,
as its advocates claim, it requires that Christians at least say something against such abhorrences, doesn't it? And
certainly Christians should refrain from participating in them, shouldn't they? As has been said, only a few German
Catholics, high or low, spoke out against the Nazi treatment of the Jews, and large numbers of them participated in
the work of rounding up, transporting, working to death, running the concentration camps, waging the wars, and
executing innocents. Millions of Catholic soldiers, vigorously prodded by their bishops and priests, proudly fought in
Hitler's unjust and rapacious wars. In fact, evidence has been uncovered that some churches checked their birth
records at the request of the government in order to sort out Jews for it.

What about the Pope (Pius XII reigned during most of the era), topmost Roman Catholic, exemplar of Christian
truth and virtue, Vicar of Christ, moral teacher of his flock and of the world, defender of the right, promoter of
unrestricted brotherhood and universal love, and infallible interpreter of every wish and instruction of God? In
statements the likes of which occur in a multitude of objective histories by other scholars, Professor Nora Levin
concludes that the Pope "did not condemn the exterminations or exterminators as such. The Vatican . . . remained
silent through the Holocaust . . . . Appeals were made to the Vatican by Jews in the midst of the Holocaust and
those distant from it. But the hoped-for protest never came."

Appeals to the Pope that he speak out specifically against the genocide of the Jews came from many quarters,
Jewish and non-Jewish. The Pope was immovable. On several occasions, President Roosevelt's personal
representative to the Vatican outrightly requested the Pope to condemn the "incredible horrors" perpetrated by the
Nazis. Immovable. In one try, the President's representative forwarded to the Papal Secretary of State a
memorandum from the Jewish Agency reporting mass executions of Jews in Poland and occupied Russia and
deportations from several nations to the death camps and asked for suggestions as to how world opinion can be
brought to bear so the barbarities would cease. The Secretary replied that it had not been possible to verify that such
measures were being taken against the Jews. Immovable.

Actually there is rather conclusive documentation that the Vatican knew about it very early. After the Allies had
denounced the extermination in December 1942, the United States representative again asked the Papal Secretary
to issue a similar denunciation. The Secretary replied that the Vatican, pursuing a policy of neutrality, could not
protest specific atrocities and could only condemn immoral actions in general. (The highest representative of Christ
on earth was strictly forbidden from speaking out specifically about the slaughter of millions of innocent human
beings.)

There are two bits of evidence that lead to the hypothesis that the reasons given by the Vatican for refusing to object
to the extermination of the Jews were nothing but rationalizations. One is the fact that it had intervened on behalf of
Catholics of Jewish descent. The other is the Vatican's joining in the widespread protest against the euthanasia
program that disposed of Gypsies and other "unfit," a protest that had at least some positive effects.

Millions of human beings throughout history have learned that sometimes it is dangerous to live in Christian countries,
not to mention countries where other religions prevail, especially lethal when religion and government are allied.

Michael Hakeem, Ph.D. is Professor Emeritus of Sociology at the University of Wisconsin, Madison.