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Politics : Evolution -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: average joe who wrote (19940)1/20/2012 6:49:05 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
"None of the above precludes a creator."

No, of course not! Evolution is not about trying to explain how life first began. Biologists in general include that in their research. So why are "creationists" so hostile toward Evolutionary biology? Simple. Because evolution proves that the biblical record is not a factual and divine record, but rather a very human and flawed history/myth compilation from a small number of pre-scientific humans who belonged to a certain tribal culture and preserved some of their superstitions.

But I thought the question was why do "creationists" oppose evolutionary biology? After all, Evolution has nothing to say that would exclude any number of creators? So why are creationists so apoplectic in trying to whitewash the scientific facts? Again, because creationists are not by and large creationists as in "we believe in a 'god' who created heaven and earth out of nothing and who is immanent and personally involved in "His" creation"...but rather they are Fundamentalist Christians attempting to retain a fantastical dogma. THEY ARE CHRISTIANS. PURE AND SIMPLE.

Creationism has nothing to do with science. As ruled by the courts, it fails the tests of science on ALL counts:

  • It is guided by natural law;
  • It has to be explanatory by reference to natural law;
  • It is testable against the empirical world;
  • Its conclusions are tentative, i.e. are not necessarily the final word; and
  • It is falsifiable.

    A true creationist (in the broad definition) does not need to disprove or attack Evolution because Evolutionary Science does not dispute the possibility that a creator made heaven and earth and said creator does or does not care (theistic or deistic). So if he or she is foaming at the mouth (the creationist not the creator) and desperate to disprove what is now simple science...you know who you are dealing with. Ask them why we NEVER EVER EVER find fossils of humans or pre-humans within 60 MILLION years of one another?! And ask them why it even matters--if they are merely "creationists" rather than CHRISTIANS!




  • To: average joe who wrote (19940)1/20/2012 7:58:44 PM
    From: Solon2 Recommendations  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 69300
     
    2004

    Recipe for life


    Is this an inevitable consequence of the conditions and chemicals and stuff that existed on early Earth?

    We don't know whether life is an inevitable consequence of planetary formation. Certainly in our solar system there is no shortage of planets that probably never had life on them. So it's a hard question to answer. I think the way I'd be most comfortable thinking about it is that you probably have to get the recipe right. That is, you need a planet that has a certain range of environments, certain types of gases in the atmosphere, certain types of geological processes at work, that when you have the right conditions, life will emerge fairly rapidly. I don't think we need to think about inherently improbable events that eventually happen just because there are huge intervals of time. My guess is that it either happens or it doesn't.

    Has there been a change in thinking about this over the years?

    People's ideas on the circumstances under which life might emerge have really changed and developed over the last 30 or 40 years. I think it's fair to say that when I was a boy those few people who thought about the origin of life thought that it probably was a set of improbable reactions that just happened to get going over the fullness of time. And I think it's fair to say that most of those people probably thought that we would find out what those reactions were, that somehow we would nail it in a test tube at some point.

    To a first approximation you're just a bag of carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen.

    Now I think, curiously enough, both of those attitudes have changed. I think that there's less confidence that we're really going to be able to identify a specific historical route by which life emerged, but at the same time there's increasing confidence that when life did arise on this planet, it was not a protracted process using a chemistry that is pretty unlikely but rather is a chemistry that, when you get the recipe right, it goes, and it goes fairly quickly.

    What is the recipe for life?

    The recipe for life is not that complicated. There are a limited number of elements inside your body. Most of your mass is carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, sulfur, plus some nitrogen and phosphorous. There are a couple dozen other elements that are in there in trace amounts, but to a first approximation you're just a bag of carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen.

    Now, it turns out that the atmosphere is a bag of carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen as well, and it's not living. So the real issue here is, how do you take that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere (or methane in an early atmosphere) and water vapor and other sources of hydrogen—how do you take those simple, inorganic precursors and make them into the building blocks of life?

    There was a famous experiment done by Stanley Miller when he was a graduate student at the University of Chicago in the early 1950s. Miller essentially put methane, or natural gas, ammonia, hydrogen gas, and water vapor into a beaker. That wasn't a random mixture; at the time he did the experiment, that was at least one view of what the primordial atmosphere would have looked like.

    Then he did a brilliant thing. He simply put an electric charge through that mixture to simulate lightning going through an early atmosphere. After sitting around for a couple of days, all of a sudden there was this brown goo all over the reaction vessel. When he analyzed what was in the vessel, rather than only having methane and ammonia, he actually had amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins. In fact, he had them in just about the same proportions you would find if you looked at organic matter in a meteorite. So the chemistry that Miller was discovering in this wonderful experiment was not some improbable chemistry, but a chemistry that is widely distributed throughout our solar system.

    Stanley Miller's famous experiment lent support to the idea that conditions in Earth's early atmosphere could have given rise to organic molecules. Enlarge Photo credit: © Corbis Images

    So life is really chemistry.

    Life really is a form of chemistry, a particular form in which the chemicals can lead to their own reproduction. But the important thing, I think, is that when we think about the origin of life this way, it isn't that life is somehow different from the rest of the planet. Life is something that emerges on a developing planetary surface as part and parcel of the chemistry of that surface.

    Life is really part of the fabric of a planet like Earth.

    Life is also sustained by the planet itself. That is, all of the nutrients that go into the oceans and end up getting incorporated into biology, at first they're locked up in rocks and then they are eroded from rocks, enter the oceans, and take part in a complex recycling that ensures that there's always carbon and nitrogen and phosphorous available for each new generation of organisms.

    The most interesting thought of all is that not only does life arise as a product of planetary processes, but in the fullness of time, on this planet at least, life emerged as a suite of planetary processes that are important in their own right. We're sitting here today breathing an oxygen-rich mixture of air. We couldn't be here without that oxygen, but that oxygen wasn't present on the early Earth, and it only became present because of the activity of photosynthetic organisms. So in a nutshell, life is really part of the fabric of a planet like Earth.

    Building a being

    To get back to these basic chemistry building blocks, is everything from a mouse to a bacterium to you and me made from this simple set of ingredients?

    All life that we know of is fundamentally pretty similar. That's why we think that you and I and bacteria and toadstools all had a single common ancestor early on the Earth. If you look at the cell of a bacterium, it has about the same proportions of carbon and oxygen and hydrogen as a human body does. The basic biochemical machinery of a bacterium is, in a broad way at least, similar to the chemistry of our cells.

    The big difference between you and a bacterium in some ways is that your body consists of trillions of cells that function in a coordinated manner. Bacteria are single cells, although they're not free agents. In fact, bacteria working in a sediment or in the sea actually live in consortia as well. They're not really lone operators. They work in these very, very highly coordinated communities of organisms that help each other to grow and prosper.

    Is it hard to go from these little building blocks to a full-fledged organism?

    Well, we don't know how hard it is to go from the simplest bricks, if you will, in the wall of life to something that is complicated, like a living bacterium. We know that it happened, so it's possible. We don't really know whether it was unlikely and just happened to work out on Earth, or whether it's something that will happen again and again in the universe.

    My guess is it's not too hard. That is, it's fairly easy to make simple sugars, molecules called bases which are at the heart of DNA, molecules called amino acids which are at the heart of proteins. It's fairly easy to make some of the fatty substances that make the coverings of cells. Making all of those building blocks individually seems to be pretty reasonable, pretty plausible.

    The hard part, and the part that I think nobody has quite figured out yet, is how you get them working together. How do you go from some warm, little pond on a primordial Earth that has amino acids, sugars, fatty acids just sort of floating around in the environment to something in which nucleic acids are actually directing proteins to make the membranes of the cell?

    Somehow you have to get all of the different constituents working together and have basically the information to make that system work in one set of molecules, which then directs the formation of a second set of molecules, which synthesizes a third set of molecules, all in a way that feeds back to making more of the first set of molecules. So you end up getting this cycle. I'm not sure we've gotten very far down the road to understanding how that really happens.

    Making the individual parts of DNA may not have been too difficult, Knoll says, but getting to the point where DNA began directing proteins to carry out important life functions—that leap remains tantalizingly mysterious. Enlarge Photo credit: © WGBH/NOVA

    Through a glass darkly

    In your book, you liken the study of the origin of life to a maze.

    Yes. There are multiple doors that enter the maze, but there's really only one historical path that life took. I think that while we've had some very clever entryways into several of these doors, at this point we still don't know which of these pathways ultimately will thread us through the maze and which end up in a blind alley.

    So at this point we're seeing the origins of life through a glass darkly?

    If we try to summarize by just saying what, at the end of the day, do we know about the deep history of life on Earth, about its origin, about its formative stages that gave rise to the biology we see around us today, I think we have to admit that we're looking through a glass darkly here. We have some hints, we have a geologic record that tells us that life formed early on the planet, although our ability to interpret that in terms of specific types of microorganisms is still frustratingly limited.

    I imagine my grandchildren will still be sitting around saying that it's a great mystery.

    There are still some great mysteries. People sometimes think that science really takes away mystery, but I think there are great scientific mysteries and causes for wonder and, most importantly, things that will, I hope, stimulate biologists for years to come. We don't know how life started on this planet. We don't know exactly when it started, we don't know under what circumstances.

    It's a mystery that we're going to chip at from several different directions. Geologists like myself will chip at it by trying to get ever clearer records of Earth's early history and ever better ways of interrogating those rocks through their chemistry and paleontology. Biologists will chip at it by understanding at an ever deeper level how the various molecular constituents of the cell work together, how living organisms are related to one other genealogically. And chemists will get at it by doing new experiments that will tell us what is plausible in how those chemical correspondences came to be.

    Will we ever solve the problem?

    I don't know. I imagine my grandchildren will still be sitting around saying that it's a great mystery, but that they will understand that mystery at a level that would be incomprehensible to us today.

    pbs.org



    To: average joe who wrote (19940)1/20/2012 10:12:07 PM
    From: Solon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
     
    "The recipe for life is not that complicated. There are a limited number of elements inside your body. Most of your mass is carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, sulfur, plus some nitrogen and phosphorous. There are a couple dozen other elements that are in there in trace amounts, but to a first approximation you're just a bag of carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen.

    Now, it turns out that the atmosphere is a bag of carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen as well, and it's not living. So the real issue here is, how do you take that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere (or methane in an early atmosphere) and water vapor and other sources of hydrogen—how do you take those simple, inorganic precursors and make them into the building blocks of life?"

    And I suspect that most life is not something I would want (at least not from this perspective). I mean I suppose it is possible for a beatle to experience some instinctive equivalent of joy but I am not sure this would change my opinion. Now a deer might feel a sense of peace (safety) alternating with moments of intense fear. Certainly, hunger and thirst. But I am not sure I would take that over a peaceful sleep either! The smell of homo sapiens would drive me mad and then there are wolves...

    So, carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen and a bit more and....OH!...also, an ego--a sense of self--and of course we think. But thought (whether protective or otherwise) rests on a physical ground of neurochemistry (more of that carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen)! When we lose the neurochemistry we are still carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen-but without the sense of separation from deer and beetles!

    Can I change any of this by inventing a master of the sun and the rain to do the things with the sun and the rain that I cannot do myself? I don't think so! And building a pyramid and getting mummified for strangers to poke at in 3000 years seems like a lot of work! "MY" carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen was around for a very long time before the laws of chance and a lustful gleam and an arduous swim brought me to shore!

    What a shame if I should waste this life in fear and rituals and pyramids and storm gods and sun gods and exorcisms and mindless listening to cunning or irrelevant or mindless human conduits to "Zeus". Much better to ride a horse...

    And anyone with half a brain can figure out that if there were a creator and It is whimsical or evil, it does not matter how much we skin our knees from pew to pew! And if It is caring and loving, it does not matter what we do, either!