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Politics : Evolution -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: average joe who wrote (27785)6/30/2012 11:46:26 AM
From: Solon2 Recommendations  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 69300
 
"A failed Wall Street banker following his example would look not merely for a government bailout but would insist on taking over both the Fed and Treasury."

Over and over again that writer reveals such damning evidence against Dennett's paper! (HA!) I was not surprised to find the entire article a rather deliberate attempt to invent "errors" by selectively misrepresenting context and focus. Typically weasel approaches when fighting for life while pinned in a corner (yes, this is exactly how Science makes these survivors of a disappearing species feel).

But back to being serious for a moment and quoting directly from Dennett (so much more of a real read than that other guy who was trying to shred truth rather than reveal it:

theatlantic.com

"To this day many people cannot get their heads around the unsettling idea that a purposeless, mindless process can crank away through the eons, generating ever more subtle, efficient, and complex organisms without having the slightest whiff of understanding of what it is doing."

and...

"The very idea that mindless mechanicity can generate human-level -- or divine level! -- competence strikes many as philistine, repugnant, an insult to our minds, and the mind of God."

But now Darwin, Turing, and many many others have shown how competence leads to comprehension!

"Turing, like Darwin, broke down the mystery of intelligence (or Intelligent Design) into what we might call atomic steps of dumb happenstance, which, when accumulated by the millions, added up to a sort of pseudo-intelligence. The Central Processing Unit of a computer doesn't really know what arithmetic is, or understand what addition is, but it "understands" the "command" to add two numbers and put their sum in a register -- in the minimal sense that it reliably adds when called upon to add and puts the sum in the right place. Let's say it sorta understands addition. A few levels higher, the operating system doesn't really understand that it is checking for errors of transmission and fixing them but it sorta understands this, and reliably does this work when called upon. A few further levels higher, when the building blocks are stacked up by the billions and trillions, the chess-playing program doesn't really understand that its queen is in jeopardy, but it sorta understands this, and IBM's Watson on Jeopardy sorta understands the questions it answers.

Why indulge in this "sorta" talk? Because when we analyze -- or synthesize -- this stack of ever more competent levels, we need to keep track of two facts about each level: what it is and what it does. What it is can be described in terms of the structural organization of the parts from which it is made -- so long as we can assume that the parts function as they are supposed to function. What it does is some (cognitive) function that it (sorta) performs -- well enough so that at the next level up, we can make the assumption that we have in our inventory a smarter building block that performs just that function -- sorta, good enough to use.

This is the key to breaking the back of the mind-bogglingly complex question of how a mind could ever be composed of material mechanisms. What we might call the sorta operator is, in cognitive science, the parallel of Darwin's gradualism in evolutionary processes. Before there were bacteria there were sorta bacteria, and before there were mammals there were sorta mammals and before there were dogs there were sorta dogs, and so forth. We need Darwin's gradualism to explain the huge difference between an ape and an apple, and we need Turing's gradualism to explain the huge difference between a humanoid robot and hand calculator.

The ape and the apple are made of the same basic ingredients, differently structured and exploited in a many-level cascade of different functional competences. There is no principled dividing line between a sorta ape and an ape. The humanoid robot and the hand calculator are both made of the same basic, unthinking, unfeeling Turing-bricks, but as we compose them into larger, more competent structures, which then become the elements of still more competent structures at higher levels, we eventually arrive at parts so (sorta) intelligent that they can be assembled into competences that deserve to be called comprehending. We use the intentional stance to keep track of the beliefs and desires (or "beliefs" and "desires" or sorta beliefs and sorta desires) of the (sorta-)rational agents at every level from the simplest bacterium through all the discriminating, signaling, comparing, remembering circuits that compose the brains of animals from starfish to astronomers.

There is no principled line above which true comprehension is to be found -- even in our own case. The small child sorta understands her own sentence "Daddy is a doctor," and I sorta understand "E=mc2." Some philosophers resist this anti-essentialism: either you believe that snow is white or you don't; either you are conscious or you aren't; nothing counts as an approximation of any mental phenomenon -- it's all or nothing. And to such thinkers, the powers of minds are insoluble mysteries because they are "perfect," and perfectly unlike anything to be found in mere material mechanisms.

We still haven't arrived at "real" understanding in robots, but we are getting closer. That, at least, is the conviction of those of us inspired by Turing's insight. The trickle-down theorists are sure in their bones that no amount of further building will ever get us to the real thing. They think that a Cartesian res cogitans, a thinking thing, cannot be constructed out of Turing's building blocks. And creationists are similarly sure in their bones that no amount of Darwinian shuffling and copying and selecting could ever arrive at (real) living things. They are wrong, but one can appreciate the discomfort that motivates their conviction.

Turing's strange inversion of reason, like Darwin's, goes against the grain of millennia of earlier thought. If the history of resistance to Darwinian thinking is a good measure, we can expect that long into the future, long after every triumph of human thought has been matched or surpassed by "mere machines," there will still be thinkers who insist that the human mind works in mysterious ways that no science can comprehend. "

This was a great article. Immediately, one thinks of the competence of the silk worm--or indeed any plant or animal in existence--whether they are building a nest or bringind down prey. Religious people will be the first to insist that these intricate creatures have no comprehension (no privilege of souls, as it were!)--but they cannot escape the obvious implications of gradualism. The truth is that the rabbit, the deer, and the dolphin, and the girl in the dress all have the same building blocks operating at different levels of integration and sampling power.

That there is yet a difference between organic "comprehension" and inorganic "comprenesion is obvious. Owning our sensory apparatus (and thus controlling our programming through what we see, hear, touch, and so forth) is wonderfully sentient...but certainly not the exclusive playground of humans!

Yes, this article is worth reading over several times:

theatlantic.com




To: average joe who wrote (27785)6/30/2012 12:02:43 PM
From: 2MAR$2 Recommendations  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
So my question for Dennett is this: In precisely what sense does he comprehend what he wrote in his essay and how does that comprehension justify his sneering contempt for those who disagree with him on his biological and computational reductionism?

In almost every debate or interview with Prof Daniel Dennett have never witnessed him having "sneering contempt" for anything , these poor fellows really know how to play the wounded doves when they feel threatened by these ideas & new perceptions investigating emergent consciousness & its causes from evolutionary pov. This is the most frightening thing for its implications without the "sky hook/sky crane " explanation of 'reasons from above" and of course unsettles the ancient status quo assumptions .

Its always the case when we see certain taboos violated finds immediate vitriolic retaliation of the same order & of course universally playing the "hurt card" one see's so often here (ceasless whining) . Dennett is actually quite moderating & critical of too radical leaping approaches made by earlier materialist reductionist science in what he recently termed "Greedy Reductionism" for there are still many layers of understanding we have yet to go thru .

en.wikipedia.org

In his earlier book Consciousness Explained, Dennett argued that, without denying that human consciousness exists, we can understand it as coming about from the coordinated activity of many components in the brain that are themselves unconscious. In response, critics accused him of "explaining away" consciousness because he disputes the existence of certain conceptions of consciousness that he considers overblown and incompatible with what is physically possible. This is perhaps what motivated Dennett to make the greedy/good distinction in his follow-up book, to freely admit that reductionism can go overboard while pointing out that not all reductionism goes this far

Whereas "good" reductionism means explaining a thing in terms of what it reduces to (for example, its parts and their interactions), greedy reductionism is when "in their eagerness for a bargain, in their zeal to explain too much too fast, scientists and philosophers underestimate the complexities, trying to skip whole layers or levels of theory in their rush to fasten everything securely and neatly to the foundation." [1]

Using the terminology of "cranes" (legitimate, mechanistic explanations) and "skyhooks" (essentially, fake—e.g. supernaturalistic—explanations) built up earlier in the chapter, Dennett recapitulates his initial definition of the term in the chapter summary on p. 83: "Good reductionists suppose that all Design can be explained without skyhooks; greedy reductionists suppose it can all be explained without cranes."



To: average joe who wrote (27785)6/30/2012 4:00:35 PM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 69300
 
Here's that good Google video series of a relaxed Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens , two clear thinking englishmen & two americans in really sound discussion
without all the posturing & phony pretense
video.google.com

We don't see any of the "sneering vitriol" or arrogance these pitiful apologists always come up with in their frantic alarmism & petty demonizing . These are also men that have spent years in study earning their degrees & written many many books with original critical thinking , taught many classes earning their respect .While these others are nothing more than weak minded cut n paste propaganda experts hiding in the shadows. (Truth & wisdom are easy when you have to do virtually nothing to earn it )

Then there's always the interview with Ted Haggard by Richard Dawkins just before the good preacher Haggard was outted for homosexuality & drug use , a timeless classsic on all this quakery & fakery , you can just look into his eyes & see its all charlatan BS .

(Looks like he could be one of Bruno's aliens to tell you the truth )