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To: dan6 who wrote (96213)	11/2/2012 5:25:38 PM
From: Maurice Winn	4 Recommendations Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 218790

Okay, taking it slowly, and briefly for the ADD sound-bite people of today. <<Let's slow things down. And shorten them.>> <<By <<self-less people>> I don't mean cultists but people who don't or won't profit by robbing others. There are millions of them. Few happen to be Rand-ists. Most are just trying to take care of their families. In this sense, they, too, are self-interested. But unlike doctors, divorce attorneys, and insurance agents (who deny coverage to people with pre-existing conditions), they do not prey on the misfortunes of others. I'm talking about people whose concepts of morality include other people.>> Yes, we should have free doctors, lawyers and insurance, but I'd also like free supermarkets, cars and houses too. And free A380s and fuel so I can go to England when I like. And make that free first class so I can lie down comfy to sleep. If you can give me some links to those self-less people I will make reservations now and order a self-less Lexus to replace my aged Camry. How many hours a day do you do free work and can you please supply me whatever it is you do free? Those self-less people must be in short supply because Ron Paul [who advocates very large tax cuts so there would not be much looting of taxpayers to redistribute it to all those slave drivers and cronies] got very few votes and will not be the next POTUS. Most people are keen on robbing others. <<<<People to work the fields and factories>> I will be happy to see, if I live long enough, robots to do the difficult and tedious things that need doing. This is why I think the future, if we look out far enough, will not include money. There will be too few ways for people to earn it. But your vision of utopia doesn't address now...> Actually, my vision of Utopia is well underway. If you look at how things are now compared with 200 years ago, it's nothing short of amazing. Now is getting better in leaps and bounds. Robots and machines have been doing the hard work for hundreds of years now. A tractor is a robot which just needs a bit of guidance, to do the work of hundreds of people who used to till dirt by hand and harvest wheat with a sickle or scythe. <<<<What's wrong with more and more money?>> Don't get me wrong. There is a lot of work that needs doing. The problem lies when people won't work unless they get money. i.e. The doctor who won't treat a patient because the patient doesn't have enough money. Should we insist also that spouses working at home get salaries? Should kids have to pay back their parents for the expenses incurred while raising them? Should volunteering be outlawed? In my utopian vision, we don't want everybody working for more and more money. We want everybody working, doing what needs doing, and for no money!>> There certainly is a lot of work that needs doing. Unlimited as far as I can see. How is it a problem if people won't work unless they get money? A supermarket which won't provide food unless the person has money. The miner who won't dig coal unless they get money. The pilot who won't fly unless they get money. The mother who wants a divorce unless she gets money. You surely know that mothers require money to conduct their business. Mostly, mothers do the spending. The blokes go and earn it. Volunteering should of course not be outlawed. And it is quite convenient to not have to measure every little thing we do in money terms, but even in little things, there is exchange of value. People have a rough idea of favours owed and who is on the take and who keeps things in balance. Volunteering is a hobby rather than actually useful in most instances. Why do you think that doctors should work for no pay? <<<<Maximizing consumption is good and environmentally sound?>> Jeez Louise! I know you get kicks out of riling up your readers (and a confession, so do I), but this is too silly to respond to. For a crowded planet, the dominant paradigm has to be living lightly. >> I produce as much as I can as cheaply as I can so that hordes of people can consume as much as they like. They love it. They especially love it if I produce things for no charge, which I am doing right now - one part of my business gets a bit of money sufficient to enable 97% of it to be delivered at no charge. No wonder it's very popular. I yesterday signed an agreement to turn hectares of grass into Made in China children. My intention is to maximize consumption and make it the best quality possible, while being really cheap. My Qualcomm Cyberphones are wildly popular, with millions of people buying them and billions wanting them. I want to maximize the data they can move and do it really cheaply. Cyberspace available anywhere at any time, right there in the pocket. Globalstar is just revving up, but will provide coverage where there is none now. More more more, cheaper cheaper cheaper, better better better. The agreement I just signed could lead to genetic engineering of cellulose production and cows so that cows can get huge amounts of easily digestible food from less area to make more children with better nutrition at lower cost - more more more, cheaper cheaper cheaper, better better better. It's not a crowded planet. It's a remarkably empty planet. There is no shortage of room, there's no shortage of energy, there's no shortage of much of anything other than good political sense. Most people dislike freedom and other Ayn Rand principles because they think like chimps and want to take stuff from other people, and opm, and boss them around. Sorry to be so brief, but I can expand on any points you like. Environmentally soundly, Mqurice

To: dan6 who wrote (96213)	11/2/2012 5:53:05 PM
From: arun gera	1 Recommendation Respond to of 218790

>Should kids have to pay back their parents for the expenses incurred while raising them?> In today's USA, that is called social security and medicare.

To: dan6 who wrote (96213)	11/3/2012 9:24:04 PM
From: average joe	1 Recommendation Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 218790

But your vision of utopia doesn't address now... Maybe his vision of Utopia is tailor made for him. If you spent more time being proactive about your own lot you would not need benefits and entitlements paid for by others now. I don't blame you for doing your hippy best and picking your own path early on what condemns you is thinking everybody should be dan6centric. Message 25939061 hi elmatador- i have been enjoying your discourse on poverty and the return of nations to their natural size. some may find my own story interesting. the short version: i grew up in middle class america during the 'hippie' years and embraced what i believed was a core belief at the time. I made a decision to create a life that had a lot of free time, meaning time i did not have to spend at work, even if it meant having little money. i accomplished this by living very modestly, inheriting a small amount of money, and being fortunate enough to buy a house deep in a recession, when property values were down. (like now!) now in my 50s, i live in a beautiful rural place and spend my time writing, reading, gardening, doing chores... i live officially below the poverty line and want for nothing. why am i sharing this? because i want people to know there is a lot of room for countries like the US to return to their natural size without its people having to live in abject poverty. not everybody will be able to be as fortunate as i have been. i am well-educated, grew up in a small stable, had only a small mortgage that i paid off in ten years. if even a moderate number of americans chose to live the way i do, there would be a lot more resources to go around, and i suspect, a lot more happier people. to some this may sound like heresy, but in my case, i have been happy being downwardly mobile. the only thing that seems to be out of reach for me are capital letters. (pun intended). i ended up here on silicon investor thinking i could make easy money during the dot.com era. alas, i came in late and very naive and ten years later am about where i started, and consider myself lucky! still, i enjoy listening in on the conversations, and very occasionally, contributing. all the best, -dan