To: Solon who wrote (41944 ) 9/22/2013 12:56:41 PM From: GPS Info Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 69300 So when I say that duty is a value, I mean that someone has chosen to allow a value to be so binding upon ones conscience as to compel voluntary obedience to a course of action--which course, however, is freely chosen as a course of self interest. E.O. Wilson talks about choices made for the self versus the group. This seems to be an eternal conflict within us, and for me, this often gives rise to concepts of good and evil. When I think of duties or moralities I want to apply these concepts to the modern world AND to a tribal world of 10,000 BC. So, a small tribe can be generationally self-sustaining if it's sufficiently cohesive and large enough. Degrading the cohesiveness may well reduce the survivability of the tribe, and maintaining or improving the cohesiveness may improve the odds of survival into the next generation. Importantly, cohesiveness (or size) does not guarantee survival. In these tribal systems an individual is not a self-sustaining unit in that he can not reproduce by himself. So, he can go off to be a tribe of one, but when he dies, his tribe dies as well. Whatever survival skills he learned are ultimately destroyed. If a value destroys a tribal unit, then I consider that to be a bad value. Dan Dennett talks about dangerous memes which can be sterilizing to groups which accept them, for example the Shakers. I believe that the idea of individual selfishness can be catastrophic to a small tribe, however it can survive for that individual living in our current civilization because there is no (large-scale) threat to society's ability to be self-sustaining. As more and more individuals decide to become more selfish, the outcome seems to be a lower fertility rate for that society. In these tribal systems there must be instincts to protect and nurture the group and maintain cohesion. Maternal instincts and the hunting traits of males in groups to bring down larger game are only two examples. We can call a father's concern and support for his children a "duty" to his children or a moral necessity because without it, the probability of survival for those children is likely to decrease, possibly leading to destruction of the tribe and the loss of its culture. It can be said that man who walks out on his wife and kids has shirked his duty or is immoral. There may be good reasons why he left, but at least in the tribal system, this would not be "good" in a general sense. I will posit that those values which improve the long-term survival of the group can be considered good values, and those which degrade the survival of the group as bad values. Ayn Rand seems to focus on the choices for the individual. I usually think these idea of selfishness might work for a small subset of the society, but not for the majority, and definitely not for a small tribal system.