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Politics : View from the Center and Left -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (239959)	12/15/2013 6:49:27 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 541997

What you say strikes me as basically nonsensical. It's basically recycled Rand. The me-me cult of Rand has never appealed to me. But that does not mean her work is devoid of value. But this post was not about Rand or libertarian ethos. Clearly you did not understand me, so let me try a different angle. Any objective measure should tell you that the progressive side has been losing for more than a generation. So it is long past the time to reformulate the strategy. There is a long list of things that the "Left" wants. Rather than focusing on short term reversible gains, the progressives should come up with a 10 - 30 year plan. Using the language of the Right against them and focusing on a different set of asks that comply with the Right's stated values (note the "stated" part), should be a more effective strategy. ST

To: epicure who wrote (239959)	12/15/2013 11:07:53 PM
From: koan	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 541997

Great post. "You can talk all you want to about "self actualization" but it's really all about money and opportunity, and the poor don't have it, and most of them never will, if someone doesn't help them. Which means spreading around a little wealth, and depriving the top 5% of a little of their lucre. It's no surprise to me that the healthiest times for all people in this country, were times when taxes were high and levels of inequality were low. What we need to fight for, is airtime to prove to people that when all people do better society is healthier, and in order for all people to do better, some people need to be given a hand up. Most of the so-called Horatio Alger stories in this country are actually stories of rich kids who done good. And that goes to show you something- it helps to have money. Everybody wants money. Everybody knows its value- until you start talking about education, or helping the poor, then, somehow, money loses its effectiveness. Freedom may give us a chance to realize our potential, but it also gives us the freedom to starve, to be abused, to be beaten, to be uneducated, to be neglected, and to be ignored. Give me the socialist democracies any old day. Hoffer has some interesting things to say, and I enjoy his little screeds on absolutists, but if my grandma had had nards she wouldn't have been my grandma- so what? So what if Hitler had been an artist? Some other leader probably would have exploited the desperation of the Germans. The real lesson there, imo, is don't make people so desperate they'll go for anything, no matter how nutty. That said, I think race is a stupid proxy for discrimination now. I'm much more in favor of helping people based on their actual need- but I'm 100% for helping people, for sharing the wealth, and for taxing the wealthy- because no man is an island (although those bunker dwelling loons come close), and we really do need to make sure we take care of each other, and of this little planet we all are stuck on, together. So don't expect me to appreciate all of your positions. It's just not going to happen. Ever. And an appeal to authority, even thought it's a darling fallacy, isn't going to work.