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Politics : Evolution -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: TigerPaw who wrote (64990)	1/20/2015 11:17:44 PM
From: John	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 69300

Our universe is not infinite, It is expanding which pretty much sums up that it has a current size. [...] Still there are things that are provably infinite. The square root of two for example can be shown to have an infinite description even though it can be known to an arbitrary precision. These two statements are seemingly in conflict. Imagine doing the opposite and squaring two (and each subsequent iteration) at a faster rate than the universe is expanding. Now, imagine that the manifestation of the ever-increasing numbers are physical numbers with a physical size. At some point, the physical size of the numbers would fill up the universe. Where would the overflow go, assuming that you continue the process of squaring each new iteration and the results cannot be compressed within the universe? My initial point in my previous post wasn't really that the universe is infinite -- I recognize that it is expanding -- but, rather, what exists beyond the edge? Whatever is there, if we travel to its opposite edge, what is there, etc.? So, a foam (which is entirely hypothetical) could have a definite size and yet contain an infinite number of "bubbles". And yes, multiple dimensions are also hard to visualize. I personally try to image the projection of the dimensions on our discernable space-time paradigm. That is to say, I can't see them all at once, but I can sometimes see (in my mind) the interaction of some on our version of space-time. I generally agree. It's sort of like the paradox of walking toward a wall (the distance between you and wall is finite) and constantly halving your speed as you approach, so you never reach the wall despite always moving toward it.

To: TigerPaw who wrote (64990)	1/21/2015 9:57:36 AM
From: Solon	1 Recommendation Recommended By 2MAR$ Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 69300

"Our universe is not infinite, It is expanding which pretty much sums up that it has a current size." But notice that this is just a definition we have created by agreeing to draw an area around a certain part of existence which we will call our "universe." On a very small scale, if we were the size of an atom, we could consider trillions of dust particles being flung outward as our universe. We could not observe, define, or measure anything beyond those particles of spinning dust and dust clusters, so we could only say that this was the universe and wonder if anything existed "outside" of that universe. We couldn't know that we were an atom in a farmer's field in the middle of a typhoon! :-) Whenever we observe or measure anything, we give it a name and then we define (or try to define) boundaries. I think it is a popular notion that our universe is "creating" space/time as it spreads itself, but as John pointed out...what in the Hell does that mean!? deepastronomy.com "Since the universe is expanding, it is a natural question to ask, what is it expanding into? When we peer deep into the cosmos, we cannot see a boundary. So far, we have uncovered no evidence that a boundary exists. Space may extend to infinity or it may not, but in Einstein's universe things can be curved, and if things can be curved, they can be curved in on themselves, twisting and bending the shape of the universe into virtually anything imaginable. General relativity makes it possible to live in an infinite universe with no boundary at all. Because of general relativity, spacetime is not a static entity. It is a dynamic and ever-changing fabric within which the locations of all galaxies are woven. Galaxies are not themselves moving very much, but they appear to move to us, because of new, cosmic real estate continually injected, increasing their distance from us. It is this creation of new spacetime, and the rate at which it is being created, which determines how fast a galaxy appears to be moving away from us. So what is the universe expanding into? When new spacetime is created, into what do the edges go? The answer depends on whether or not there are edges. If we live in an infinite universe, then the answer has to be nothing. Adding more fabric to infinity doesn't make more infinity. An infinite universe would have no edges that expand and the question is meaningless. In such a universe, there would be no 'outside'. On the other hand, if the universe is finite, with a boundary that we have not yet discovered, then the answer may be that we are expanding into something. If that is true however, then the boundary is so far away that we cannot see it and it can therefore never, ever affect us. We have already seen photons that have been travelling since the universe was only 500 million years old. Anything much further away lies beyond our detection forever. Given that our universe is expanding - if we cannot see the boundary now, this expansion guarantees we never will - it will forevermore get further and further away. it will always lie beyond our detection. Only one hundred years ago, we had no idea there were other galaxies besides our own. It was thought that humanity and the galaxy we inhabit was an island, adrift in a universe of 100 billion stars. We now know that our universe is a vast, dynamic cauldron of activity: home to 100 billion galaxies, all racing away within a boiling ocean of spacetime. While we may yet find our universe is just an island, we have discovered it is much larger than we ever thought."

To: TigerPaw who wrote (64990)	1/21/2015 10:03:24 AM
From: Solon	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 69300

The relativity of perception makes it difficult for us to even consider that our "universe" could be relatively tiny comparatively speaking. But it is all relative. Remember what happened to the incredible shrinking man ;-) And maybe just "outside" our galaxy there is a gigantic (REALLY GIGANTIC!) cat about to pounce. I know this introduces difficulties of load bearing materials, etc. etc--but just having some fun! In some faraway alternate universe, we are known as the "MOUSE GALAXY"!