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Biotech / Medical : Vivus: into single digits -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: BigKNY3 who wrote (41)	2/5/1998 1:42:00 AM
From: BDR	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1016

Thanks for the summary of Dr. Tom Lue's research results. Actually I was standing in the room at the Convention Center in New Orleans last April during the AUA about ten feet away from Dr. Lue when he presented the poster on the Viagra trials that you alluded to in your post. Glad you have ready access to the data. I would characterize the interest in his presentation on the part of attendees as extreme. Never seen anything like it. Aside: Since I offended the TUNA with my last post I will now do him a favor and provide his response to yours: Tom Lue is a paid shill of Pfizer, he is a disreputable scientist, the data is fraudulent, Viagra doesn't work, Viagra KILLS!!!, yadayadayada... Sorry I couldn't drag it out to 1500 words but you get the idea.

To: BigKNY3 who wrote (41)	2/5/1998 12:42:00 PM
From: Tunica Albuginea	Respond to of 1016

BigKNY3, as much as I love you for allegedly owning Vivus stock, I still must insist on scientific rigor. The Pfizer abstracts ( at the AUA ) and publications in 2 2nd class Journals ( Inter J of Impotence and the Brit Jour of Urology are well known thanks to PFE PR. What is LESS known are : -The studies in the above 2 journals were done in Pfizer's labs in Brighton England, by PAID PFE scientists ( Boolel and others).They were not conducted by INDEPENDENT academic centers as the MUSE study was in the New Engl Jour of Med and the Lahey Clinic in Boston. -The above 2 journals are 2nd class: Easy to publish in them. It is like publishing in the JAMA: hardly anything gets rejected. On the other hand it is very difficult to publish in the NEJM. That is because the editorial board in the NEJM is more rigorous. There are no Urologists on it to investigate pills because Urologists are not technically competent to evaluate the effects of pills systemically.This is best left to Internists with knowledge of the cardiovascular system. -So when Tom Lue's eyes become enchanted by the merits of a pill/systemic drug I am significantly less than aroused. -When Tom Lue published on MUSE/ Alprostadil, Alprostadil's systemic effects and safety had already undergone a 15 year testing process by Internists. It had ALREADY been proven safe.Tom Lue didn't prove anything.All he did is stick it in the Urethra and determined that there was an erection.That is hardly earth shaking research. - when you ACTUALLY read the above AUA/Viagra abstract you posted you will note ( I hope ) what it actually says: " these patients had NO KNOWN cause for ED ": ie they could have been mostly psychogenic with a slight shade of organic. ie PFE will sell placebo pills to healthy people ( a good way to make money I should add). - " the end point was erection and NOT intercourse as it was for MUSE". -the onset for Viagra for intercourse is not "20 min but 20 to 60 min, so that the average is much more than 20 min " Even our opinionated short DrDale Russell is less than impressed with Viagra by his own headliner in this thread.Maybe you should address your Viagra concerns to him Big rather than to a Vivusite. Finally for people interested inreading in depth analysis/comparison of MUSE/Viagra contorversy, the following is better material (rather than getting your medical info from Barrons ). A )VIAGRA ( " THE PILL " ) by Pfizer -published articles ( in peer reviewed journals ): a) British Journal of Urology(1996)78, 257-261 this is the first clinical article .12 patients Message 2703575 b) International Journal of Impotence Research (1996) 8, 47-52 Message 3209803 -Zebra compares MUSE to VIAGRA Message 2817790 -phosphodiesterase ( PDE ) sideeffects ( in relation to upcoming? Approval of Viagra Sildenafil,also a - -PDE ): www3.techstocks.com - www3.techstocks.com TA