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Pastimes : JESUS and FINANCIAL FREEDOM -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Alan Markoff who wrote (666)	3/11/1998 11:15:00 PM
From: Jane Hafker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1283

I believe that if we are not free to discuss the Ark of the Covenant, and that we cannot have great and incredible interest in it from about 100 standpoints, then truly our Christianity has driven some of us quite mad. That's my only take on it. As for me, I will discuss the Ark of the Covenant with anyone and everyone, and come one day to understand why it is presented in Rev. 11, or wherever you saw it. Nancy, we are dealing here with things the leading theologians of all time have not clearly explained to my satisfaction, if even explained it, period. Gregor posted something the other day about an old testament burning of thingz and I need to print it out because I'm going to study it, because I realize something amazing is there. We need time to digest these things to offer an answer, and the reason we have no answer to the Ark question in Rev. is that it takes a lot of time to begin to find out what God is showing us in that portion of Rev. I'm still trying to digest Gregor's last three posts, and do not take them lightly. So, please don't think no response means no interest. To glibly shoot off about that is to me serious error also. I think there has been enough shooting wildly from the hip regarding the high things of Jesus Christ and the Old Testament history of His Father that maybe no more sudden explanations just to offer an explanation is GREAT. I appreciate your addressing your thoughts to us again, as after all, if this is not what Jesus Christ is all about, what in the world are we all doing talking about Him?

To: Alan Markoff who wrote (666)	3/12/1998 9:45:00 AM
From: gregor	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 1283

Dear Nancy: You know how I feel. You should feel more at home here than I do. If something happened that I could not post, this thread would go on; because it is founded on the solid rock of Christ Jesus. Jesus is lifted up here and God forbid if man is lifted up. I appreciate your comments on the law but can I talk now that I have heard you out? It is easy to see Christ in the OT, and in the Law and in the wilderness, and in the lions den and in the furnace now that we have seen and known Christ personally. Once you know Him you find out that He is everywhere. You know that He was everywhere , orchestrating all events in the OT speaking to the prophets, to the kings, and even to the people on occassion. But take away the NT and see how much of Christ is visible in the OT. If you don't know what you are looking for, it is a lot harder to find. The Ark to me is a symbol of estrangement. While the presence of God was seen there, the mystery of God experienced there,it was for someone else to enjoy and experience to the fullest. It represented the exclusion of all of the priviledges I have now in Christ. It represented the restrictions of priviledges, rather than the freely given, open,free will that I have now under Christ. I have to admit; I get extremely agitated when I get the feeling that somebody is trying to place me back under the law, to put me in my place if you will ! And this can be done so subtely. I can understand the feelings of a defensive nature that in particular mature Christians feel when they catch the slightest wiff of manipulation. These are some of the things that really wave a red flag to me; and I admit send off bells becaus it undermines the blood of Jesus IMO. Comments made or heard like:(ALL TRUE) "Brother, ( not Jesus ) GOD has given me a word of knowledge for you !" "Unless you are a member of a church I just don't believe you can ever get to heaven" "Unless you attend church regularly I just don't believe you can go to heaven" "If you are not being healed then you have unforgiven sin in your life" "Not tithing a full 10% will place you under a financial curse" "I believe you have to come down to this altar to get deliverance" "Cancer can only be driven out if the elders of the church lay hands on you" "Women cannot be on the deacon board" "Women cannot be ministers of the gospel" "you cannot play golf, or be a member of a country club and be a Christian" " If you want to charge your offering on your credit card, the church secretary will oblige you" Am I saying that you are any of these , do not be ridiculous; of course not. This is all I am saying. You and Alan grew up under the law. You saw its kinder , gentler, happier side. And in a previous post I gave all the benefits of living under the law and how it was a much better way of life than many christians live today. But this doesn not excuse us from missing out on the richness and freedom that we SHOULD be living in Christ. But most Christians did not grow up under the law, the gentiles, and heathen who have come to Christ in particular grew up under bondage to SIN, and this bondage is the worst of all; so that when Christ has set them free they are free indeed. Once having been that deeply in bondage I know I resent any type of bondage to the Law or whatever. As to what is the worst type of bondage to be in to the LAW or to SIN, that is open for debate. That would be like me choosing between castor oil and drinking moonshine straight. John Doe may say I've been drinking moonshine since I was 12 years old, but that doesn't mean it would taste good to me. Sincerely, lovingly, respectfully, in Christ..gregor

To: Alan Markoff who wrote (666)	3/12/1998 12:25:00 PM
From: Barnabus	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1283

I apologize to you Nancy for upsetting you----the furtherest thing from my mind when I asked for clarification on Taylor was to "drive a wedge." Will you forgive me? Sounds like it could be something like the "Templer" thing Jane talks about...in any event, J. Hudson Taylor was and is one of my spiritual heroes...and it just made me wonder where you were coming from... I am very pro-Jewish...believe me I am...I am sure Taylor is in for fabulous rewards for his ministry. That's all. May God's blessing through Yeshua be upon you. B.