Dwight, I wanted to respond to this message again, because in it, unless I am completely misunderstanding you, you have gone far beyond simply talking about certain Bible passages--which indeed I did want to know about, because I have no understanding of what the Bible says--and have gone on to present your views. Not only are you explaining what the Bible says, in fact, but adding that this is verified by records in other places, and I understood your implication to be that this was the TRUTH. This would certainly seem to invite a search of other records, or lack thereof, for example that one historian on the web is saying Jesus is not mentioned in the historical record for, I believe, 150 years after his death, which may call his existence into question. I mean, if he was so famous in his time and performed miracles, why did it take so long? That would imply perhaps a legendary or mythological or symbolic, rather than actual, being. I especially took note of your tone in this statement:
So for the purposes of this ongoing discussion, homosexuality is sin, and I'm not going to be discussing that anymore.
If you reread your entire post, are are stating a VERY particular position, and stating that this is the only real position, and also opining that a homosexual could not be a Christian for long. I think this discussion started out pretty tentatively, and tamely, but after you wrote this post, certainly, it would invite a lot of comment from people who believed differently.
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Christine, I'm glad you asked that question. I never said a homosexual couldn't be
sanctified.
Homosexuals are just as qualified to be sanctified as anyone else. God's grace extends
to everyone, including child molesters, rapists, and murderers. Again, sanctified
means to be made holy. How does one be made holy? Only by believing that Christ
died for them, a sinner, who otherwise would be forever separated from God,
condemned by their sin. God only sees a person as holy when he looks at a person
through Christ. There is no other way to be saved; the Bible is abundantly clear on
this. Jesus said "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" [John 3:16]. It
really is that simple, Christine. Either one believes and is saved, or does not believe and
is condemned.
In re whether a homosexual could be in a "saved state": first, a homosexual would have
to believe that their sin, including the sin of homosexual acts and the fact that they are a
homosexual, is indeed sin. The Bible is abundantly clear that homosexuality is sin, along
with the other thousands of things that make mankind sinful. So for the purposes of this
ongoing discussion, homosexuality is sin, and I'm not going to be discussing that
anymore. But I haven't heard of too many homosexuals with that view, although I am
quite sure there are some.
Homosexuality is what man would call a "gross sin". (to God, sin is sin, and without
Christ, all sin equally separates man from God--if you're separated, you're separated,
there's no halfway point). It's kind of difficult to "define" a gross sin; it would be easier
to define a gross sin by looking at the effect: Gross sins are very serious: they may
shake a person's faith in Christ. Gross sins cast a cloud over the whole spiritual life of a
person, drawing them away from God. Gross sin may be illegal, or have other real-life
negative consequences. Other obvious gross sins: Acts of violence toward others,
shoplifting, robbing banks, molesting children, spousal abuse, etc. There are others that
I would include here, but you get the idea. When someone is committing gross sins,
their heart is moving away from God, not towards God. If someone wants to keep a
good relationship with God, then they don't want to commit gross sins, because they
know that these things get in between them and God. God hates sin, but indeed loves
the sinner.
When someone is moving steadily away from God, one of two things are bound to
happen: Either they will begin to deny to themselves that they are a sinner and in need
of grace (if they ever did believe that), or else the burden of the sinful lifestyle will
become too heavy for their conscience, and they will fall into an unbelieving state
(refusing to believe that God would accept them as they are).
I am of the opinion that a Christian who becomes a practicing homosexual would not
be able to remain a believing Christian for very long. The only healthy solution,
spiritually speaking, would be to beg forgiveness, cease being a practicing homosexual,
and get therapy. If therapy didn't work, then the homosexual would simply have to
accept that his homosexual feelings are an extra burden that afflicts him. Many
Christians in life are afflicted with heavy burdens, which test their faith. Life for a
Christian is constantly a battle between what the flesh wants to do, and what is right
and good in the sight of God.
Let's take a different example: Robbing a bank. How many bank robbers believe they
are sinners in need of God's grace? I'm sure there are former bank robbers who are in
a saved state. Which brings to mind the thief on the cross:
There were two thieves crucified on crosses along with Jesus, one thief on either side
of Jesus. While on the cross, "one of the thieves turned to Jesus and said, If thou
be Christ, save thyself and us". [in other words, he personally did NOT believe
Jesus was the Son of God, the promised Savior]. But the other answering
rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same
condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our
deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord,
remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him,
Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
In other words, that thief went to heaven.
So in other words Christine, this second thief believed:
1) That he was condemned by his own works [Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art
in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our
deeds].
2) He believed that Christ was the son of God, who would conquer the inevitable
death at the cross by coming to life and ascending to heaven ("when thou comest into
thy kingdom").
3) Futher, this second thief knew that he by himself couldn't be saved, but Jesus could
save him [remember me].
In re Sodom and Gomorrah, or the destruction of them: I didn't offer that scientific
evidence that it happened as backing for my own belief. I simply wanted to cut off any
arguments that might be, "what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was simply a
metaphorical story with perhaps some other meaning, nothing about homosexuality,
probably didn't really happen anyway." There are many real events described in the
Bible, which did indeed take place. Often those events have a spiritual meaning also.
Evidently you aren't aware, Christine, that quite a lot of events recorded in the Bible
are also recorded other places; in books, court records, and other physical evidence.
It's true that there are metaphorical stories in the Bible, and in fact Jesus often spoke in
parables, which are stories to illustrate a spiritual point. But it's fairly clear which is
which. The book of Revelations; for example, is largely metaphorical, but it is a book of prophecy.
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