Dwight, you took a post of mine to Nancy which was all about religious tolerance, trying to find ways for different groups to compromise and be fair with one another, and live peacefully side-by-side without hurting each other, and you not only twisted it to fit your own agenda, but were admittedly sarcastic in your responses to me.
I stand on my assertion that the people among us who are the most rigid and polarized about their belief systems, and do not exhibit tolerance for the beliefs of others, cause a lot of the really negative and divisive occurrences when there are frictions between groups. I do think sarcasm is a pretty desperate response, and I am just tired of you trying to say that I'm a witch or something on top of that. What I have been saying is extremely simple, and I will say it just once more and then I plan to ignore your posts, because they are really unpleasant:
I defend your rights to freedom of religion. As far as I am concerned, you can believe anything you want to, AS LONG AS YOUR BELIEFS DO NOT HURT INNOCENT BYSTANDERS. When your beliefs are so judgmental and inaccurate that you conclude homosexuals are sinners, and do not deserve equal civil rights like the right to employment, you have taken your belief system and politicized it and thrust it into mainstream society, and I do not think that is fair. This whole debate here started with a 60 Minutes segment, and the startling figures that 30% of teens who commit suicide are homosexual, and a quarter of parents who find out their children are homosexual immediately kick them out of their homes. I am getting tired of repeating the statistics, and do not plan to do it again, but my point is that rigid conservative Christian belief systems about homosexuals hurt them horrendously in this society. In fact, across America more and more people are voting against equal rights for homosexuals, and their status is actually eroding. It is the Christian far right which is orchestrating this political movement.
Contrary to what you said, not all people believe their religion is the right one. Many people can accept that all religions are belief systems, which by implication implies giving space to people who believe differently, and not taking themselves so seriously! You said several posts back that you were BORN Christian. No, you weren't! Children are blank slates for their parents' belief systems, if they have the kind of parents who choose to impose their beliefs on their children (not all parents do). Isn't it curious that wherever we go in the world, the small children are believing what their parents tell them about God? Doesn't that sort of suggest that your beliefs are learned, and not absolute? You also have free will--you can change your belief system if you feel like it. All of these belief systems are simply OPINIONS which have grown up over time, trying to answer the questions man has about the life force, the universe and the existence of eternity. It surprises me, logically speaking, that people kill each other because they have different beliefs. So it not that I am intolerant of religious freedoms at all, or your religion as long as you do not inflict it upon me, but disappointed that religions are capable of causing so much pain unless we all step back and worship whatever we believe in a little quietly, and not try to force our religion on others in a hurtful way.
Within Christianity, many denominations have come to accept homosexuals, incidentally, and some even ordain homosexual ministers. So your belief system is yours, but not really reflective of all Christians. Some Christians see God and Jesus as punitive figures, full of retribution, and some see God and Jesus as warm and loving and accepting. I was baptized as a Christian, even though you would not recognize me as your brethren, and certainly feel that I am entitled to speak of Jesus as a positive, tolerant figure. I do wonder how you and the other people who are so condemning of homosexuals would feel if we turned the tables for a moment. Imagine being told by a bunch of true believers in some religion, who had most of the power in a society, that you could never, ever make love to a woman because it is wrong!! And that you had to make love with men, or spend your entire life alone, denying your sexuality completely. Most heterosexual men would go crazy under that regime, and if you could understand that homosexuality is not a choice, and is almost never changeable, I would hope you would be slightly less judgmental about this group of people and start comprehending the damage that has been done to them by labelling them as sinners (bad people). You cannot really argue that you are tolerant of homosexuals as long as you perceive them as sinners who are not entitled to the full protection of the law.
I find it curious that you are so closed that you refuse to read a url. I read every bit of all of your posts, and I really don't have time to continue a dialogue with someone who simply shuts out information. I don't think that is a very good way to learn things, or have any kind of reasonable discussion. Most of the urls I provided had something to do with how Jews are discriminated against and are the victims of hate crimes, and how some conservative Christians call them satanic. It seems there is quite a bit of that kind of name calling around the religious threads at SI, and since this is a public place I feel perfectly comfortable being there, and commenting upon it. There are a lot of hate crimes in this society, and I think it is healthy to talk about them.
But there was one url which pretty much summed up the militia movement in this country, and the typical belief systems of militia members. I AM IN NO WAY IMPLYING THAT YOU, OR ANYONE ELSE HERE, IS IN THE MILITIA MOVEMENT. However, I am really fascinated and repelled at the same time by the fact that the adherents of this movement are just a little bit further down the road in their belief systems, in the sense that they have banded together and taken action, than a lot of the conservative Christian voices I hear around here every day. I just think that is alarming, and dangerous, and it really worries me because I am concerned for the future of America, and I think these are very relevant issues to talk about, particularly because even at this thread we have someone who has been a victim of that kind of violent hatred. I am not sure who "N" is, and it was obviously written some time ago. I could easily provide ten more web pages which give the same facts, so even though N has chosen to be anonymous, the information is accurate:
The Militia Movement:
A Brief Overview
by N.
The American militia movement is a social movement occurring among rural white Christians who believe that the
United States government does not have the right to govern them. According to the militias, the United States
government does not have the right to govern them because the government has broken its covenant with the
Christian God and the Christian people.
The manner in which the government has broken its covenant with God seems to be the following:
Supporting the environmental movement, which the militias view as earth-worshipping pagans; an act which at
times may directly affect the welfare of rural persons.
Allowing abortion to be legal, which the militias believe to be a direct violation of the law of their god.
Being supportive of the homosexual rights movement and of the victims of AIDS, which the militias view as
God's punishment for the transgression of His law.
Entering into an international economy, which militias view as an attempt to subvert the American Christian's
way of life by imposing rule by foreign persons on American citizens. The militias are generally wary of
foreigners and believe them to be, for the most part, un-Christian in belief and behavior. This could also have a
direct, negative effect on the economic situation of persons in the militias. Any references to the New World
Order and the mysterious meeting on Iron Mountain (reportedly fictitious) are references to this concern.
These people are extremely suspicious of the United Nations and see it as a force of evil which will eventually
be coming for them in the guise of the army of Satan.
Supporting the feminist movement, which the militias view as directly going against the law of their god. They
believe that god ordained that women be under the rulership of their husbands just as Christ rules every man.
Removing prayer from public schools, allowing literature which portrays homosexuals in a positive light in
public schools, and attempting to institute more comprehensive forms of sex education (meaning that they are
not abstinence only programs and they do not discuss the religious significance of abstinence). Both of these
are atrocious acts to the militias.
Alienating rural persons with the complicated federal bureaucracy.
Perhaps most importantly, the attack on the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas by the FBI under the command
of Janet Reno, and the arrest of the Freemen (short for "God's Free Men") of Montana, also by the FBI. The
militias view this as a direct assault on their way of life and a declaration of war from the secular government
against the militia's theocratical government.
The militias believe that, because the government has broken its covenant with God and with the Christian people, it
no longer has sovereignty over them. Instead, they call themselves, "Sovereign Citizens," which means that they have
sovereignty over their own persons and answer only to religious authority.
The result of this belief is that they have created separate, theocratic governments at the local level. These
governements have their own courts and officials. They frequently summon officials of the legitimate goverment and
other outsiders to appear in their court. While no one, to my knowledge, has ever answered such a summons by
appearing in their court, the court still tries and sentences these persons.
Usually, the crime has something to do with violating their rights as sovereign citizens. When the person does not
appear in court, the court issues threatening statements to the individual. Frequently, a lien is placed on some
property of the accused. Such liens are easy to file, but require costly litigation to remove.
The militias also have their own police force, driver's licenses and automobile license plates. Driver's licenses are
issued by a minister. One man was killed by a legitimate traffic police officer when he was pulled over for having an
illegal plate on his car and emerged from the car with a gun in his hand. The police officer is now wanted for murder
by the militia court.
Timothy McVay, the man who is believed to have detonated the bomb that destroyed the Oklahoma City Federal
Building (although he has not yet been convicted and must be presumed innocent until that time) had contact with a
militia town called "Elohim" which is a Hebrew word from the Bible often translated to refer to the Christian God
(although some scholars believe that a better translation would be "dieties"). Significantly, he placed a call there the
day before the bombing. The bombing occurred on the anniversary of the attack on the Branch Davidian stronghold
in Waco which resulted in a huge death toll. It seems clear that the Oklahoma City bombing was a direct retaliation
against the FBI by the militias.
The Branch Davidians of Waco, Texas and the Freemen of Montana were both targetted by the FBI for having vast,
illegal arsenals in their possession. While these were perhaps the largest arsenals, they are likely not the only ones
held by freemen, militias or similar persons.
The disturbing thing about these people is not how strange or crazy they are, but how common. Their agenda and
belief is similar, if not identical to, many "normal" Christians, Rush Limbaugh, George Bush, Ronald Reagan, and the
Christian Coalition.
paranoia.com
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