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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (19323)	3/27/1998 6:26:00 PM
From: Dwight E. Karlsen	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

X, I really appreciate your response. You were intellectually honest, willing to examine the issues from a real-world perspective, rather than emotion-laden stereotypes of whole classes of people. So, re But to talk of the tolerance for other people's religions, or natures (and I believe homosexuality is a trait not a choice, although to act upon a homosexual nature is a choice, just as to act upon one's heterosexual nature is a choice) in the same breath as to speak of toleration for criminal actions makes no sense. To tolerate beliefs is one thing, to tolerate actions is another. The only great difficulty I see is where beliefs which are centered on hating others, generate actions that cause harm. Nancy was speaking of this. And it is a great problem. Where does belief slip into action? I do not know the answer to that. I spoke of many things in the same sentence, in the context that these were things that could be considered "wrong" from a person's personal religious or otherwise moral credo. Obviously some things are criminalized and some are not. I was speaking of personal actions, and of my religious and otherwise moral credo which results in my need to personally evaluate whether or not something is expediant for me. The legislatures of the states and countries will debate what needs to be criminalized, and we could discuss those things too. But there still exists a need for each person to be responsible for their own and others' welfare. The government is virtually helpless in preventing people from harming each other; they can only move in to stop and turn over to the courts those who they believe have committed things which society has deemed unlawful. The only great difficulty I see is where beliefs which are centered on hating others, generate actions that cause harm. Nancy was speaking of this. And it is a great problem. Where does belief slip into action? I do not know the answer to that. I stated over and over again, that my personal religious beliefs do not condone hating anyone. Hate is wrong. Only love is right. Yet some simply won't accept that, and prefer instead to insist I am "intolerant", "causing hatred", etc. Some seem to think that if I or others believe that homosexual sex is "wrong" according to a personal and individual moral credo, that somehow that belief is transferred to homosexuals, who then feel bad, get depressed because of that, and commit suicide. I say that is a ridiculous conclusion to come to. I'm not depressed that you say, "I believe the use of drugs is wrong. I do not even drink coffee or tea, or cola with caffeine. I do not smoke." That is your personal credo or belief system, or whatever you want to call it. It's yours, and may not be mine. I once asked the question here: If an alcoholic committed suicide because he perceived that society may not approve of his condition/actions, etc., is that the fault of individuals who did not approve of being an alcoholic? I never received an answer. The whole argument that somehow someone's personal beliefs cause damage to others is faulty. There has to be actions. I personally would not confront and accuse a homosexual of morally reprehensible behavior, and have not done so. However, if a homosexual is reading this, for instance, and perceives that I may not personally approve homosexual behavior, that should not harm him or her. I have no God-given or otherwise power to condemn people, so there is nothing to fear from me. If someone's personal credo gives them a larger range of activities to indulge in, and they choose to indulge in them, then our beliefs are just simply different. Whatever happened to the idea that diversity and "different" are good? It makes me wonder if the whole "diversity is good" campaign is intellectually honest. DK

To: epicure who wrote (19323)	3/28/1998 2:49:00 PM
From: greenspirit	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

X, let me ask you something. Would you honestly say that you would be just as happy if your children came home and said they were gay and going to marry someone of the same sex? My opinion...the political correct crowd has prevented people from openly saying what they truly feel in this forum. If my child came home and told me that, I would still love them as I always had, but deep down I would be sad for the limitations their life would now give them. I can't help but feel that experiencing the closeness of a relationship with the opposite sex is far more enriching than limiting ones life to one sex-partner. As a man who has spent a great deal of time cooped up with other men, I can truly say that women provide a unique way of looking at life, that men, gay-or straight, never completely do. I believe these feelings have nothing to do with fear or non-acceptance. And everything to do with appreciating the differences between men and woman. Michael