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Pastimes : Ask God II -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Alan Markoff who wrote (29)	4/7/1998 12:44:00 PM
From: Henry Volquardsen	Respond to of 253

Thanks Nancy. I tried to start a one on one conversation with Jane to see if it was possible for two people from 'opposing' sides of the debate to try and find out why each felt the way they did and if there was some common ground. To keep my mind clear for the discussion I deleted the bookmark and only responded directly to her replies to me. I don't think she did and unfortunately there were so many people screaming at each other over there that she appeared to be distracted by the other posters. As a consequence she seemed to be responding more to others than me and the conversation became disjointed. I then went back to read some of the other posts to see what was causing the conversation to run off track. Some of the stuff was a bit much. I was going to post an open message about people talking without listening and being judgmental. I then realized that was just being judgmental myself and refrained. The only solution was to state clearly what I believe for anyone who cares to listen and move on. Which I have done, I hope, and will again as the opportunity presents itself. Hope all is well with you and Alan. Henry

To: Alan Markoff who wrote (29)	4/8/1998 12:27:00 PM
From: Achilles	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 253

>> Josephus is respected as a reliable source of History and his objective reports on Jesus are interesting. He did not find Jesus to be an ordinary man as well as the miracles.<< Nancy, the reliability of Josephus is much disputed, as his respectability. His famous reference to Jesus at _Antiquitates Judaeorum_ 18.63, sometimes called the 'testimonium Flavianum' is especially problematic, not because of Josephus' reliability (or lack thereof), but because we can't be sure that he wrote it. An English translation of it would read: "About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah." (The text continues and mentions his crucifixion and, importantly, his resurrection). Most scholars have concluded that the passage is either a Christian forgery, or at least a heavy adaption of something that Josephus originally wrote. Note that Josephus, who was a Pharisaic Jew, could hardly have said that Jesus was the Christ, so at least that much must be a later Christian interpolation. Nor would a non-Christian be likely to say that people who are interested in the truth were taught by him; nor would a non-Christian believe in the resurrection. The text is either a complete forgery or at least heavily doctored. Does this matter for your faith? No. You believe for other reasons. This text should be kept out of any attempt to justify your faith. It is, of course, an interesting historical example of an attempt by someone to further the cause of the truth through forgery or falsification, but that is a different matter, not at all unparalleled in human history.

To: Alan Markoff who wrote (29)	4/8/1998 1:43:00 PM
From: Graystone	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 253

Hi Nancy, good idea to put your name in the title. The past is interesting, but our destiny lies in the future, not the past. Nothing can change that. Do you realize that we have accomplished great things all over the world through recognition of the fact that the world turns, even when we wish it would stop. We can pray that the scope of the Universe will become smaller, but what we learn keeps making it larger. Buzz Lightyear "To infinity, and beyond." Thanks Louis