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To: Charles Hughes who wrote (10223)	4/7/1998 11:27:00 PM
From: seth thomas	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 14631

>> Personally I know former programmers in different walks of life, who seem hard-working and intelligent, and who could easily learn a better and easier development environment than the ones they had to work with. I think many folks forget that there are people out there who may be 60 now but started out programming withhex machine code on boxes with 8K of memory, who often helped invent what we know as computing. They were far more qualified than today's average (you used to have to get in the top 2% on what was basically an IQ test (the PAT test) to even get ajob.) They could learn learn todays easier development environment, Visual Basic or Delphi, lets say, in a heartbeat. SO WHY DON"T THEY? The problem is that people look at their grey hair and imagine Alzheimers. Or daddy. Os somebody, perhaps, savvy enough to see through the BS and make trouble. MAYBE SOME, BUT NOT ALL MANAGERS. THE GOOD MANAGERS JUST WANT TALENT. AND A DECENT ATTITUDE. In fact while you are doing anintense project with a given set of tools for one company, you are probably gettingdated. Yet you are working too intensely to get new training. If you finish the project, your usefulness is over. End result - laid off, for working too hard. The folks who keeptheir jobs: the ones that don't finish their projects, but take time for training and to have lives. Just ask them. They'll tell you. They are usually proud of being so wised up. SOUNDS LIKE A PERSONAL PROBLEM AND AN INABILITY TO MANAGE PARALLEL ACTIVITIES. NOT SOMEONE I'D WANT WORKING FOR ME. BUT ALSO, NOT TRUE. MAYBE IN SOME ROTTEN MIS DEAPRTMENT OF SOME BIG, ARCHAIC COMPANY, BUT NOT IN ANY SOFTWARE COMPANY I EVER SAW. Continue pretending that the misery of East Palo Alto wasn't created by the Palo Alto across the creek. CHAZ, I HATE TO BURST YOUR BUBBLE, BUT SOME OF THOSE FOLKS BROUGHT ON THEIR OWN MISERY, AND NEED TO TAKE A LITTLE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEMSELVES. YES, DEFINITELY, SOME PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DEALT A ROTTEN HAND. IT"S PROBABLY 50 - 50.

To: Charles Hughes who wrote (10223)	4/8/1998 11:47:00 AM
From: Punko	Respond to of 14631

Just want to say I'm enjoying this discussion even if it's off topic. Also the point you raised about EPA hits home. One thing I'd like to do very much before I check out is to somehow evangelize inner city disadvantaged folks about the immense opportunities out there just begging to be seized. The captains of hitech industry shouldn't have to grovel before Washington to bump up human import quotas. There's plenty of raw material right here. These people just need to be given the proper role models, inspiration and hope to light that motivational fire within. Imagine the kinds of social problems this would solve! Instead of joining a gang, dealing crack, or prostituting yourself, try learning C++, SQL or Java. Having worked with a number of foreign contractors, I'm convinced that a properly motivated inner city person, with a little inspiration early enough in life, will ultimately be able to contribute at similar, if not higher levels. I'm not suggesting protectionism here. Let the free market reign. I'm just pointing out what I'd do and what I hope the Bill Gateses and Larry Ellisons of the world ultimately embark on.

To: Charles Hughes who wrote (10223)	4/8/1998 5:24:00 PM
From: Tino	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 14631

I couldn't agree more with everything Steve has said. He's right there is no free lunch for anybody. I, too, live in the valley and while I see a lot of sharp entrepreneurs and business people (both foreign and American) I also see a good number of people who sit on their asses, browse the web all day, kick back and enjoy their cushy jobs. Especially in larger companies, this is all too prevalent. The day will come when these people find themselves out in the market - maybe not unlike some legacy programmers today - again whining about the foreign engineers who will knock on America's door to replace them. Some senator somewhere will be quick to say that we need to close the borders to prevent that. I'll say "Let them in. They are good for this country." Guess who will be supporting the senator? The spoiled brats should not have had their jobs in the first place. I don't care if they're Americans. They were not competitive or flexible enough. No employer needs such employees. Where I work I see many people who used to be programmers back in the 70s and 80s and they're making good money today. Either as managers or as senior developers. They went with the flow and came out ahead. Nobody had to take them by the hand and tell them how to stay on top. In fact, even though I don't have any data to support this I believe that most COBOL programmers have made this transition. Most of them we need not worry about. Someone has to finally realize that companies looking to hire don't care if you're from India, Taiwan, or Colorado. They look at who they can get and what these people can do for them. If anything, Americans have a head start because of the language and because they're familiar with the way business is being done here. No need to whine about being disadvantaged. In fact, for any given company it's much more troublesome to hire a foreign national because of the restrictions the immigration authorities place on the visa process. Any idea how many companies won't even hire you unless you're already a permanent resident or citizen? No anti-discrimination act here that prevents that... The companies have to pay attorney fees, reveal their financials to a certain extent, advertise the position in a major local newspaper for a number of days, interview American applicants and prove that none was qualified, etc. The Dept. of Labor also enforces salary requirements to make sure no "alien" gets hired because he/she is cheaper than an American with comparable skills. Why would companies go through all that if they could just retrain enough COBOL programmers who have IQs higher than 98% of us but are unable to find a job? It is a myth that foreign engineers take jobs away from Americans. They take on positions that could not be filled otherwise. Something must be wrong with the U.S. education system if it does not produce as many bright engineers as the market needs. Why do companies flock to the college campuses to recruit talent? And who are they going to get from there? More foreign nationals (percentage-wise) than Americans! Why is it that if you go to any library on a U.S. college campus on a sunny Saturday afternoon you will see that most of the people who study there are foreign students? Where is everybody else? On the beach? In the frat houses getting the next keg ready? How many Americans don't even bother to go to college? Some cannot afford it, some believe that it's a complete waste of time and some do go but are of the opinion that spring break should last all year. I'm sick and tired of hearing the same old "close the borders" rehash. That's not what this country is all about. This country has always been about free markets (consumer, financial, and job) and I believe that this is one of the major reasons why it is #1 today. Silicon Valley companies, in particular, owe a great deal of their success to the foreign IT workers without whom all this growth would not have been possible. There are enough opportunities out there for every American. Let's not forget that. Tino.