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To: Dwight E. Karlsen who wrote (14082)4/17/1998 2:57:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Respond to of 39621
 
"Refutation of The Jews" by St. Athanasius

Here is a beautiful chapter from St. Athanasius book called <On The Incarantion". St. Athanasius collects and presents the Prophetic Scriptures from the Old TEstament to demolish modern Judaism opposition to Jesus as the Messiah. This is a great love offering by St. Athansius to help liberate the Jewish people from the religious concentration camp of modern Judaism. Whoever wants to honestly believe in Moses and the Prophets must believe that Jesus is the Messiah because the main theme of Moses and the Prophets is the Crucified Jesus. I ask all Christians to pray that God opens the hearts of every unsaved Jew who reads these words.

CHAPTER VI

REFUTATION OF THE JEWS

[Contents] [End Notes] [Scripture Index]
[Back] [Next]

(33) We have dealt thus far with the Incarnation of our Savior, and have found clear proof of the
resurrection of His Body and His victory over death. Let us now go further and investigate the
unbelief and the ridicule with which Jews and Gentiles respectively regard these same facts. It
seems that in both cases the points at issue are the same, namely the unfittingness or incongruity (as
it seems to them) alike of the cross and of the Word's becoming man at all. But we have no
hesitation in taking up the argument against these objectors, for the proofs on our side are
extremely clear.

First, then, we will consider the Jews. Their unbelief has its refutation in the Scriptures which even
themselves read; for from cover to cover the inspired Book clearly teaches these things both in its
entirety and in its actual words. Prophets foretold the marvel of the Virgin and of the Birth from
her, saying,

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name
'Emmanuel,' which means 'God is with us.'"[1]

And Moses, that truly great one in whose word the Jews trust so implicitly, he also recognized the
importance and truth of the matter. He puts it thus:

"There shall arise a star from Jacob and a man from Israel, and he shall break in
pieces the rulers of Moab.[2]

And, again,

"How lovely are thy dwellings, O Jacob, thy tents, O Israel! Like woodland valleys
they give shade, and like parks by rivers, like tents which the Lord has pitched, like
cedar-trees by streams. There shall come forth a Man from among his seed, and he
shall rule over many peoples."[3]

And, again, Isaiah says,

"Before the Babe shall be old enough to call father or mother, he shall take the power
of Damascus and the spoils of Samaria from under the eyes of the king of
Assyria."[4]

These words, then, foretell that a Man shall appear. And Scripture proclaims further that He that is
to come is Lord of all. These are the words,

"Behold, the Lord sitteth on an airy cloud and shall come into Egypt, and the
man-made images of Egypt shall be shaken."[5]

And it is from Egypt also that the Father calls him back, saying,

"Out of Egypt have I called My Son."[6]

(34) Moreover, the Scriptures are not silent even about His death. On the contrary, they refer to it
with the utmost clearness. They have not feared to speak also of the cause of it. He endures it,
they say, not for His own sake, but for the sake of bringing immortality and salvation to all, and
they record also the plotting of the Jews against Him and all the indignities which He suffered at
their hands. Certainly nobody who reads the Scriptures can plead ignorance of the facts as an
excuse for error! There is this passage, for instance:

"A man that is afflicted and knows how to bear weakness, for His face is turned
away. He was dishonored and not considered, He bears our sins and suffers for our
sakes. And we for our part thought Him distressed and afflicted and ill-used; but it
was for our sins that He was wounded and for our lawlessness that He was made
weak. Chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His bruising we are
healed."[7]

O marvel at the love of the Word for men, for it is on our account that He is
dishonored, so that we may be brought to honor. "For all we," it goes on, "have
strayed like sheep, man has strayed from his path, and the Lord has given Him up for
our sins; and He Himself did not open His mouth at the ill-treatment. Like a sheep He
was led to slaughter, and as a lamb is dumb before its shearer, so He opened not His
mouth; in His humiliation His judgment was taken away."[8]

And then Scripture anticipates the surmises of any who might think from His suffering thus that He
was just an ordinary man, and shows what power worked in His behalf.

"Who shall declare of what lineage He comes?" it says, "for His life is exalted from
the earth. By the lawlessnesses of the people was He brought to death, and I will
give the wicked in return for His burial and the rich in return for His death. For He
did no lawlessness, neither was deceit found in His mouth. And the Lord wills to heal
Him of His affliction."[9]

(35) You have heard the prophecy of His death, and now, perhaps, you want to know what
indications there are about the cross. Even this is not passed over in silence: on the contrary, the
sacred writers proclaim it with the utmost plainness. Moses foretells it first, and that right loudly,
when he says,

"You shall see your Life hanging before your eyes, and shall not believe."[10]

After him the prophets also give their witness, saying,

"But I as an innocent lamb brought to be offered was yet ignorant of it. They plotted
evil against Me, saying, 'Come, let us cast wood into His bread, and wipe Him out
from the land of the living."[11]

And, again,

"They pierced My hands and My feet, they counted all My bones, they divided My
garments for themselves and cast lots for My clothing."[12]

Now a death lifted up and that takes place on wood can be none other than the death of the cross;
moreover, it is only in that death that the hands and feet are pierced. Besides this, since the Savior
dwelt among men, all nations everywhere have begun to know God; and this too Holy Writ
expressly mentions. "There shall be the Root of Jesse," it says, "and he who rises up to rule
the nations, on Him nations shall set their hope."[13]

These are just a few things in proof of what has taken place; but indeed all Scripture teems with
disproof of Jewish unbelief. For example, which of the righteous men and holy prophets and
patriarchs of whom the Divine Scriptures tell ever had his bodily birth from a virgin only? Was not
Abel born of Adam, Enoch of Jared, Noah of Lamech, Abraham of Terah, Isaac of Abraham,
and Jacob of Isaac? Was not Judah begotten by Jacob and Moses and Aaron by Ameram? Was
not Samuel the son of Elkanah, David of Jesse, Solomon of David, Hezekiah of Ahaz, Josiah of
Amon, Isaiah of Amos, Jeremiah of Hilkiah and Ezekiel of Buzi? Had not each of these a father as
author of his being? So who is He that is born of a virgin only, that sign of which the prophet
makes so much? Again, which of all those people had his birth announced to the world by a star in
the heavens? When Moses was born his parents hid him. David was unknown even in his own
neighborhood, so that mighty Samuel himself was ignorant of his existence and asked whether
Jesse had yet another son. Abraham again became known to his neighbors as a great man only
after his birth. But with Christ it was otherwise. The witness to His birth was not man, but a star
shining in the heavens whence He was coming down.

(36) Then, again, what king that ever was reigned and took trophies from his enemies before he
had strength to call father or mother? Was not David thirty years old when he came to the throne
and Solomon a grown young man? Did not Joash enter on his reign at the age of seven, and
Josiah, some time after him, at about the same age, both of them fully able by that time to call
father or mother? Who is there, then, that was reigning and despoiling his enemies almost before
he was born? Let the Jews, who have investigated the matter, tell us if there was ever such a king
in Israel or Judah--a king upon whom all the nations set their hopes and had peace, instead of
being at enmity with him on every side! As long as Jerusalem stood there was constant war
between them, and they all fought against Israel. The Assyrians oppressed Israel, the Egyptians
persecuted them, the Babylonians fell upon them, and, strange to relate, even the Syrians their
neighbors were at war with them. And did not David fight with Moab and smite the Syrians, and
Hezekiah quail at the boasting of Sennacherib? Did not Amalek make war on Moses and the
Amorites oppose him, and did not the inhabitantsof Jericho array themselves against Joshua the
son of Nun? Did not the nations always regard Israel with implacable hostility? Then it is worth
inquiring who it is, on whom the nations are to set their hopes. Obviously there must be someone,
for the prophet could not have told a lie. But did any of the holy prophets or of the early patriarchs
die on the cross for the salvation of all? Was any of them wounded and killed for the healing of all?
Did the idols of Egypt fall down before any righteous man or king that came there? Abraham came
there certainly, but idolatry prevailed just the same; and Moses was born there, but the mistaken
worship was unchanged.

(37) Again, does Scripture tell of anyone who was pierced in hands and feet or hung upon a tree
at all, and by means of a cross perfected his sacrifice for the salvation of all? It was not Abraham,
for he died in his bed, as did also Isaac and Jacob. Moses and Aaron died in the mountain, and
David ended his days in his house, without anybody having plotted against him. Certainly he had
been sought by Saul, but he was preserved unharmed. Again Isaiah was sawn asunder, but he was
not hung on a tree. Jeremiah was shamefully used, but he did not die under condemnation. Ezekiel
suffered, but he did so, not on behalf of the people, but only to signify to themwhat was going to
happen. Moreover, all these even when they suffered were but men, like other men; but He Whom
the Scriptures declare to suffer on behalf of all is called not merely man but Life of all, although in
point of fact He did share our human nature. "You shall see your Life hanging before your
eyes," they say, and "Who shall declare of what lineage He comes?" With all the saints we
can trace their descent from the beginning, and see exactly how each came to be; but the Divine
Word maintains that we cannot declare the lineage of Him Who is the Life. Who is it, then, of
Whom Holy Writ thus speaks? Who is there so great that even the prophets foretell of Him such
mighty things? There is indeed no one in the Scriptures at all, save the common Savior of all, the
Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ. He it is that proceeded from a virgin, and appeared as man
on earth, He it is Whose earthly lineage cannot be declared, because He alone derives His body
from no human father, but from a virgin alone. We can trace the paternal descent of David and
Moses and of all the patriarchs. But with the Savior we cannot do so, for it was He Himself Who
caused the star to announce His bodily birth, and it was fitting that the Word, when He came
down from heaven, should have His sign in heaven too, and fitting that the King of creation on His
coming forth should be visibly recognized by all the world. He was actually born in Judea, yet men
from Persia came to worship Him. He it is Who won victory from His demon foes and trophies
from the idolaters even before His bodily appearing--namely, all the heathen who from every
region have abjured the tradition of their fathers and the false worship of idols and are now placing
their hope in Christ and transferring their allegiance to Him. The thing is happening before our very
eyes, here in Egypt; and thereby another prophecy is fulfilled, for at no other time have the
Egyptians ceased from their false worship save when the Lord of all, riding as on a cloud, came
down here in the body and brought the error of idols to nothing and won over everybody to
Himself and through Himself to the Father. He it is Who was crucified with the sun and moon as
witnesses; and by His death salvation has come to all men, and all creation has been redeemed.
He is the Life of all, and He it is Who like a sheep gave up His own body to death, His life for ours
and our salvation.

(38)Yet the Jews disbelieve this. This argument does not satisfy them. Well, then, let them be
persuaded by other things in their own oracles. Ofwhom, for instance, do the prophets say

"I was made manifest to those who did not seek Me, I was found by those who had
not asked for Me? I said, 'See, here am I,' to the nation that had not called upon My
Name. I stretched out My hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people."[14]

Who is this person that was made manifest, one might ask the Jews? If the prophet is speaking of
himself, then they must tell us how he was first hidden, in order to be manifested afterwards. And,
again, what kind of man is this prophet, who was not only revealed after being hidden, but also
stretched out his hands upon the cross? Those things happened to none of those righteous men:
they happened only to the Word of God Who, being by nature without body, on our account
appeared in a body and suffered for us all. And if even this is not enough for them, there is other
overwhelming evidence by which they may be silenced. The Scripture says,

"Be strong, hands that hang down and feeble knees, take courage, you of little faith,
be strong and do not fear. See, our God will recompense judgment, He Himself will
come and save us. Then the eyes of blind men shall be opened and the ears of deaf
men shall hear, and stammerers shall speak distinctly."[15]

What can they say to this, or how can they look it in the face at all? For the prophecy does not
only declare that God will dwell here, it also makes known the signs and the time of His coming.
When God comes, it says, the blind will see, the lame will walk, the deaf will hear and the
stammerers will speak distinctly. Can the Jews tell us when such signs occurred in Israel, or when
anything of the kind took place at all in Jewry? The leper Naaman was cleansed, it is true, but no
deaf man heard nor did any lame man walk. Elijah raised a dead person and so did Elisha; but no
one blind from birth received his sight. To raise a dead person is a great thing indeed, but it is not
such as the Savior did. And surely, since the Scriptures have not kept silence about the leper and
the dead son of the widow, if a lame man had walked and a blind man had received his sight, they
would have mentioned these as well. Their silence on these points proves that the events never
took place. When therefore did these things happen, unless when the Word of God Himself came
in the body? Was it not when He came that lame men walked and stammerers spoke clearly and
men blind from birth were given sight? And the Jews who saw it themselves testified to the fact
that such things had never before occurred. "Since the world began," they said,

"it has never been heard of that anyone should open the eyes of a man born blind. If
this Man were not from God, He could do nothing."[16]

(39) But surely they cannot fight against plain facts. So it may be that, without denying what is
written, they will maintain that they are still waiting for these things to happen, and that the Word of
God is yet to come, for that is a theme on which they are always harping most brazenly, in spite of
all the evidence against them. But they shall be refuted on this supreme point more clearly than on
any, and that not by ourselves but by the most wise Daniel, for he signifies the actual date of the
Savior's coming as well as His Divine sojourn in our midst. "Seventy weeks," he says,

"are cut short upon thy people and upon the holy city, to make a complete end of sin
and for sins to be sealed up and iniquities blotted out, and to make reconciliation for
iniquity and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint a Holy One of holies. And thou
shalt know and understand from the going forth of the Word to answer,[17] and to
build Jerusalem, until Christ the Prince."[18]

In regard to the other prophecies, they may possibly be able to find excuses for deferring their
reference to a future time, but what can they say to this one? How can they face it at all? Not only
does it expressly mention the Anointed One, that is the Christ, it even declares that He Who is to
be anointed is not man only, but the Holy One of holies! And it says that Jerusalem is to stand till
His coming, and that after it prophet and vision shall cease in Israel! David was anointed of old,
and Solomon, and Hezekiah; but then Jerusalem and the place stood, and prophets were
prophesying, Gad and Asaph and Nathan, and later Isaiah and Hosea and Amos and others.
Moreover, those men who were anointed were called holy certainly, but none of them was called
the Holy of holies. Nor is it any use for the Jews to take refuge in the Captivity, and say that
Jerusalem did not exist then, for what about the prophets? It is a fact that at the outset of the Exile
Daniel and Jeremiah were there, and Ezekiel and Haggai and Zechariah also prophesied.

(40) So the Jews are indulging in fiction, and transferring present time to future. When did prophet
and vision cease from Israel? Was it not when Christ came, the Holy One of holies? It is, in fact, a
sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands, neither is
prophet raised up nor vision revealed among them. And it is natural that it should be so, for when
He that was signified had come, what need was there any longer of any to signify Him? And when
the Truth had come, what further need was there of the shadow? On His account only they
prophesied continually, until such time as Essential Righteousness has come, Who was made the
Ransom for the sins of all. For the same reason Jerusalem stood until the same time, in order that
there men might premeditate the types before the Truth was known. So, of course, once the Holy
One of holies had come, both vision and prophecy were sealed. And the kingdom of Jerusalem
ceased at the same time, because kings were to be anointed among them only until the Holy of
holies had been anointed. Moses also prophesies that the kingdom of the Jews shall stand until His
time, saying,

"A ruler shall not fail from Judah nor a prince from his loins, until the things laid up for
him shall come and the Expectation of the nations Himself."[19]

And that is why the Savior Himself was always proclaiming

"The law and the prophets prophesied until John."[20]

So if there is still king or prophet or vision among the Jews, they do well to deny that Christ is
come; but if there is neither king nor vision, and since that time all prophecy has been sealed and
city and temple taken, how can they be so irreligious, how can they so flaunt the facts, as to deny
Christ Who has brought it all about? Again, they see the heathen forsaking idols and setting their
hopes through Christ on the God of Israel; why do they yet deny Christ Who after the flesh was
born of the root of Jesse and reigns henceforward? Of course, if the heathen were worshipping
some other god, and not confessing the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Moses, then
they would do well to argue that God had not come. But if the heathen are honoring the same God
Who gave the law to Moses and the promises to Abraham--the God Whose word too the Jews
dishonored, why do they not recognize or rather why do they deliberately refuse to see that the
Lord of Whom the Scriptures prophesied has shone forth to the world and appeared to it in a
bodily form? Scripture declares it repeatedly. "The Lord God has appeared to us,"[21] and
again, "He sent forth His Word and healed them."[22] And again, "It was no ambassador,
no angel who saved us, but the Lord Himself."[23] The Jews are afflicted like some demented
person who sees the earth lit up by the sun, but denies the sun that lights it up! What more is there
for their Expected One to do when he comes? To call the heathen? But they are called already. To
put an end to prophet and king and vision? But this too has already happened. To expose the
Goddenyingness of idols? It is already exposed and condemned. Or to destroy death? It is already
destroyed. What then has not come to pass that the Christ must do? What is there left out or
unfulfilled that the Jews should disbelieve so light-heartedly? The plain fact is, as I say, that there is
no longer any king or prophet nor Jerusalem nor sacrifice nor vision among them; yet the whole
earth is filled with the knowledge of God, and the Gentiles, forsaking atheism, are now taking
refuge with the God of Abraham through the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Surely, then, it must be plain even to the most shameless that the Christ has come, and that He has
enlightened all men everywhere, and given them the true and divine teaching about His Father.

Thus the Jews may be refuted by these and other arguments from the Divine teaching.



To: Dwight E. Karlsen who wrote (14082)4/17/1998 3:04:00 PM
From: Grainne  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 39621
 
Dwight, I think it is essentially tedious to have to prove people wrong with their own posts. I certainly can find much better things to do with my time. Thank the goddess it is usually not necessary, because most people are consistent and basically honest. I don't like being falsely accused, though, so here is your post where I got the idea homosexual sex makes you sick:

Message 3696360

For people who don't have the time or inclination to click on urls, here is the sentence:

"But yes, personally I find homosexual acts, incestuous acts, child molestation, murder, and all other manner of gross sin to be disgusting, unnatural, and abhorrent."

If you keep wanting to fight with me, I am not so sure you will be happy working in my antiques store. I can turn into a bitch with employees who constantly try my patience. And I do have an awful lot of homosexual customers, so maybe you wouldn't feel comfortable working so closely with them. I don't know, though--that's up to you!!



To: Dwight E. Karlsen who wrote (14082)4/17/1998 11:57:00 PM
From: Grainne  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
Dwight, I don't think anyone wants to hear a graphic description of sex here--heterosexual or homosexual sex acts--even using medical terminology. I could easily describe them both, but I would think all the acts were equally funny and strange, talking about them. Something is lost in the translation!! Do you remember when you were a child, and found out what actually happens, either from your parents, or at school, or by watching farmyard animals having sex? It is quite weird and shocking, really, isn't it?

I will say that both men and women are very sensual creatures, with adequate erogenous zones for lovemaking with either men or women. Everyone fits together perfectly with everyone else. And since homosexuality and bisexuality are widespread in birds and animals, it would be my conclusion that God designed us all for immense pleasure, especially in the context of love relationships where there is trust and acceptance as well as lust. Since men think about sex almost constantly, and women think about it every day, but not quite to the same degree, it seems to me that God must have wanted us to make love a lot. And since some of us are naturally attracted to men, and some of us to women, in both sexes, obviously it is all very natural, and there is nothing new under the sun.

I must say that I am increasingly concerned about your new job at my antique store, though. In San Francisco, some men and women in homosexual relationships feel comfortable hugging or holding hands in public--the same things that heterosexuals do. If a gay couple came into the store holding hands, would you feel comfortable helping them buy something expensive, so I can make a big profit? Or would they be able to sense your discomfort and disapproval?