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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Robert E. Hall who wrote (16691)	5/29/1998 11:58:00 PM
From: O'Hara	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 39621

><>...Greetings Robert...><> Gen 17:4-7 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Let it be noted that this covenant it is said it Hebrews 6:13-20 that because God had sworn to it by an oath and because God cannot lie, the covenant is immutable. This covenant was unalterable, unchangeable, and everlasting, which means it must still exist today. Read the entire covenant in Gen. Chapter 17. You will find that it not only concerned the ownership of all the Land from the river Euphrates to the river Nile, but, overshadowing all else, it was a covenant "to be unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, in their generation for ever and ever. Note that the covenant was made not only with Abraham for his lifetime, but also with his seed forever, through Isaac (Gen.17:8-24 and Rom.9:7-9)and through Isaac's son Jacob. _______________ _______________ The covenant which you speak of is a national covenant which was conditional, and not the Abrahamic covenant which was not conditional. At Mount Sinai, God gave His people a code of laws, Statutes, judgments, commandments and ordinances (the latter ceased with the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ) by which His kingdom on earth would be administered. The people of Mt. Sinai entered into a solemn covenant with their God and King, for they said."All that the Lord has spoken we will do" (Ex.24:7-8)..That is the First National Covenant and must not be confused with the Abrahamic Covenant! Here God has laid before His people the conditions of this national covenant.If they keep His laws blessed would they be in all their undertakings, blessed in the city and blessed in the field, and so on and so on... But if they did not keep those laws then the opposite would be the result....All their undertakings would be cursed, their crops would fail,disease in the cattle and in their own bodies, poverty and sickness would overtake them and their enemies would overtake them in battle....Deut.28 And Lev.26 Here God warned Israel that if they persisted in breaking His laws, not only would curses come upon them He would punish them for seven times, ( a time being 360 yrs., seven times would be 2520 yrs.) AND wouldbanish them among the heathens (like lost sheep) Lev.26:28-46 For many years all went well, but soon they began to tire and wanted to be like other peoples. First they wanted an earthly king and God said that although in doing so, they had rejected Him, He would give them permission (1 Sam. 8:7-22) Saul was then appointed as Israel's first earthly king. He was removed sometime later because of sin, and God Himself appointed David (of the tribe of Judah) to be king over all Israel. God then established the Throne of David FOREVER...(2 Sam.7:11-17 and Psalm 89:3-4) making an everlasting Covenant with David that his throne and his house would endure forever and that there would always be one of David's seed of lineage to reign upon that throne over the House of Israel for Ever. (Jer> 33:17-26)...The throne would endure as long as the sun and the moon endured in the heavens.(Ps.89:29-37) So we have: 1. The everlasting Covenant made with Israel forever, through their forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is now called Israel. 2.The Kingdom of Israel established for ever. 3. The throne of the House of david established as the Monarchical system over the House of Israel forever. So the House of Israel, the throne of David, and the Everlasting Covenant must be in existence today. Have a good evening Robert Shalom...><>

To: Robert E. Hall who wrote (16691)	5/30/1998 10:20:00 AM
From: DLL	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Dear Robert; I believe that Shalom has answered you question better than I could. I do not understand why you wish to exclude anyone from the Kingdom of God. I believe that Yeshua is the only way to salvation and I will leave all judgment to him. I think you make an error confusing the effects of sin and rebellion with God turning his back on his people. I myself and not worthy of salvation but it was God's grace which allows me to call him Father. You tread on dangerous ground attempting to decide how good a nation or person needs to be. A remnant Of Israel has always stayed with God. On the first day of the Church, Pentecost, thousands of Jews believed. If I apply this test of condition to the Gentiles, we would be in bad shape as well. The vast majority of Americans are not believers. Do you think God will turn his back on America. Whosoever will shall be saved. God does not judge corporately, rather he looks on the heart of the individual. I would ask you to look at Eze. 38 & 39. These verses describe a time yet future when God will intervene again for the nation Israel. Ezekiel 38:18 It will come about on that day, when Gog comes against the land of Israel, declares the Lord GOD, that My fury will mount up in My anger. 19 In My zeal and in My blazing wrath I declare that on that day there will surely be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. Eze 39:22 And the house of Israel will *know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. 23 The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them. 25 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. 26 They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. 27 When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. Clearly these verses deal with the issue you covered in your post about God's punishment of Israel. However, if you are saying that God is finished with Israel you are mistaken. Please read the whole of these two chapters and I will be glad to discuss them with you. So far no one will answer this challenge. If you can explain this to me I would be interested in continuing this. If not you will never convince me. Respectfully yours in Messiah Yeshua - DLL