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To: Andy Thomas who wrote (19943)6/6/1998 2:46:00 AM
From: Charles Hughes  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 24154
 
>>>>>I supposed this person never took an Operating Systems course. Unix had a superior file system to FAT in 1973!<<

And UNIX ran on an IBM PC? It seems to me i know a bit about OSes, and you just posted a non sequitur.<<<

Andy, my apologies, but this repeated claim is absurd. I have worked on many of the OS's since the CDC 1700, the Burroughs 305, and the IBM 360. This included many minicomputers of the 70's and systems like the Apple II, CPM, and lots of Unix boxes as well. Many of these manufacturers produced earlier, better file systems. Even MSFT has produced a vastly superior file system, specifically the one in NT.

There was nothing about FAT that was/is attractive or innovative. The OS 360 system was better in 1966.

OK, FAT is better than paper tape. It's better than card decks. It's better than the C64 disk format. If that's your point, it's weak.

You rejected the argument that the Unix file system of many years ago was superior, on the grounds that it wasn't a PC file format.

So let's see: FAT was innovative because it was the first PC file system, and no other, older, better file systems need apply? Therefore FAT must be best because it is the only one that fits your circular criteria. (Apparently, the most innovative file system of 1981 that was the first file system that ran on PCs.) Hmmm.

The programmers that design these things are allowed to learn from previous systems you know. But even if FAT had come up to the standards of the time in file systems, which it didn't, that would have been standard engineering, not innovation. Even if the folks at Microsoft had developed it rather than Seattle computer (I think that was the name of the developers of DOS.) Wasn't your original point that MSFT had been innovative, specifically in creating the FAT system? If MSFT created this later and it wasn't part of the original DOS then I stand corrected.

But innovative means you break new ground, not that you indulge in clumsy kludges like FAT. FAT has been wasting a large percentage of the world's disk storage since the beginning. It's been like a 10% tax on most of the disk drives sold since 1983. How many billions of dollars would that be? Well, a boon to the disk drive manufacturers, maybe? No, a tax on them too.

Have a nice day,
Chaz



To: Andy Thomas who wrote (19943)6/7/1998 8:20:00 PM
From: Daniel Schuh  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 24154
 
Andy, it may seem to you that you know a bit about OSes, but it doesn't seem that way to anybody else. Lord help me, I used DOS 1.0 (maybe 1.1, I forget). FAT was truly innovative, a single level file system for 256 kbyte floppy disks. That's right, only a top level directory. Of course, that wasn't Bill's innovation anyway, since he just bought it from the Seattle Computer guy. As far as I can tell, FAT is at the root of the integrity and uniformity of the Windows experience, a fragile and unprotected loser that seems to be synchronous to the core. Without FAT, I'd guess it'd be a lot harder for Windows to fall to pieces over time, as it typically does.

And yes, you could get Unix for IBM PCs, around the time you could get hard disks. From IBM, on about 100 floppies or something. Not that it made much difference. Most early Unix machines had about the same CPU horsepower as a decent 8086 machine, but you needed better peripherals, like, say, a hard disk, and it was pretty dicey without some kind of memory management hardware, which didn't happen till the 286.

For your reading pleasure, I offer this vaguely related quote, from infoworld.com

A unique look at software innovation was provided recently by Greg James in a letter to the editor published prominently by both the Seattle Times and the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, the two largest dailies in Microsoft Town. James is the owner of a software company that competes (successfully, James says) with Bill Gates' Corbis venture in selling CD-ROMs of fine art. In his letter, he wrote:

"It would do people well to remember that Microsoft (for all its power and size) has never had a major success that was truly its own idea. It bought the original operating system [DOS] from another computer company, it copied Apple for its Windows operating system, it copied Lotus 1-2-3 and came up with Excel, it ripped off Netscape's idea for a Web browser, it came out with Word after WordPerfect, and so on and so forth. On the other side of the coin, when you look at all its own ideas or products (ones that have to stand on their own two feet) you have a different story: Bob, MSN, Slate, Mungo Park, and most of their entertainment products have been huge flops ... .

"An obvious pattern has emerged: If the idea is taken from someone else and assisted by or bundled with its operating system monopoly, it works. If it is an original idea and isn't supported by the monopoly, it fails (usually miserably)," James continued.

In its defense, Microsoft has some very skilled people who have brought out some very useful products. But James' chronology of Microsoft successes that have benefited from someone else's breakthroughs -- and failures that were Microsoft originals -- is thought-provoking. There are many examples of cases in which Microsoft has used hidden features of its OS to give its own applications an advantage over those of competitors. (A few examples were in my May 25 column, with more described at length in a special 1992 InfoWorld report.) Ideally, smaller companies should be able to innovate without fear that their work will eventually be absorbed for free into Windows.


As ever, Microsoft must be free to imitate, I mean, integrate, er, innovate! Yeah, innovation, that's the ticket, that's what Bill does best. He's just a humble software engineer, you know. He said so himself.

Cheers, Dan.



To: Andy Thomas who wrote (19943)6/12/1998 2:43:00 PM
From: Keith Hankin  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 24154
 
>>I supposed this person never took an Operating Systems course. Unix had a superior file
system to FAT in 1973!<<

And UNIX ran on an IBM PC? It seems to me i know a bit about OSes, and you just posted a
non sequitur.


This is the most tautological argument I've heard on this thread. Basically, what you're saying is that MSFT's FAT was innovative because it was the first one available on an IBM PC. Just because it was the first on a given hardware platform does not make it innovative. You have to compare it to similar technology on other hardware platforms.