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To: jlallen who wrote (663)	7/5/1998 1:45:00 PM
From: dwight martin	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 880

To: +dougjn (3894 ) From: +ccryder Saturday, Jul 4 1998 1:13AM ET Reply # of 3904 I suspect the recent rise in price is due more to the beginning of the quarter purchases by funds than to Clinton's China visit. Most of the trading Friday was in large blocks according to my broker. But I have to admit that the live debate on TV was a surprise. To: +ccryder (3895 ) From: +jlallen Saturday, Jul 4 1998 1:11PM ET Reply # of 3904 Assuming of course that anyone in China actually saw it other than those in the hall where it happened. JLA To: +jlallen (3897 ) From: +dwight martin Saturday, Jul 4 1998 2:33PM ET Reply # of 3904 "Assuming of course that anyone in China actually saw it other than those in the hall where it happened. JLA" And you, jlallen, assume the contrary, choosing to believe that nowhere in the entire effing country of China was there anyone worthy of your trust watching the TV, and who would blow the whistle on any false claim of nationwide live TV coverage? Get a job. To: +dwight martin (3898 ) From: +jlallen Saturday, Jul 4 1998 6:06PM ET Reply # of 3904 You are prepared of course to provide proof that you are correct? I have a job. You need a life. JLA To: +jlallen (3900 ) From: +dwight martin Sunday, Jul 5 1998 12:41AM ET Reply # of 3904 "You are prepared of course to provide proof that you are correct? I have a job. You need a life. JLA" If Robert Dornan, Rush Limbaugh, and the "sons of Who Lost China" aren't saying that the claim of nationwide broadcast is false, it seems to me and probably also to 99.9% of people with more than a few undamaged synapses remaining that the burden is on you to prove it false. As to "Get a job," that is of course not a literal suggestion, it is an age-old cry heard from the stands when an ump blows a call, as you have done. To: +dwight martin (3901 ) From: +jlallen Sunday, Jul 5 1998 12:46PM ET Reply # of 3904 Prove your boast. Prove to me that the Chinese people actually saw and heard the unedited version of what transpired. By the way, I might add that as to my point of view, seeing what I have seen of the exchange Clinton blew it. Jiang posed the Tianammen massacre as an honest difference between our countries and stated that the Chinese people were enjoying a period of stability as a result of the government's oppression. Clinton totally missed that opportunity to rebuke Jiang and that warped view of human rights. He blew it but of course I believe it is quite possible the whole thing was stage managed to benefit Clinton in the first place. The Chinese needed to throw him a bone and it appears they did. What exactly did this historic Clinton visit accomplish? Did he make progress on human rights? No. He was too gutless to even meet with dissidents. Chinese slave/prison labor continues. Dissidents were rounded up and jailed in honor of his visit. Three Radio Free Asia reporters had their visas revoked. The administration has not contested these actions vigorously and in fact should not have gone to Beijing until they were reversed. Did he make any progress on the trade imbalance? No. Did he make any progress toward protecting US intellectual property which is regularly pirated in China? No. Did not even garner a commitment to abate the practice. Did he make progress on the Tibet issue? No. Did he obtain any commitments to end the Chinese peculiar ideas about birth control (forced abortion and forced sterilization)? No. In short, if you like style over substance this was a great trip. Mr. Clinton is able to speak eloquently about things for which he has no real stomach. He's done it again and created a real nice media event but nothing more. This trip was historic only in the number of opportunities which were missed. Remember, this is the same Clinton who castigated ex President Bush for coddling the dictators in Beijing. Seems he did a pretty good impression. Wonder what would have motivated that behavior? JLA TODAY'S REPLY: jlallen, I never boasted, and do not have to prove, that the live nationwide broadcast in China took place. You suggest it did not. The burden is on you to adduce proof that it did not. I agree that the substance of this trip is thin, but I also recall that the Soviet Union collapsed under the pressure of modernization with very little loss of life, contrary to the crimson pronouncements of the right wing, who said that the Soviet Union would kill its population before letting them have any real freedoms. I anticipate the same thing happeneing in China over the next 10 years. I certainly hope so, because in the next century, any powerful nation not subscribing to the rule of law and the idea of government by consent of the governed will be a threat to us all. BTW, I cary no water for WJC, whom I spotted for what he is when his letter from Oxford to his draft board was released in 1992. A toy for you: lindatripp.com.

To: jlallen who wrote (663)	7/7/1998 1:32:00 PM
From: Larry L	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 880

JLA: That quote from Dragonfly is pretty scary. It really shows his twisted views of the world today. "The China as it really is today". Give me a break. This is the same country that gave us Tianamen Square and continues to require mandatory abortions after one child. They have a history of making incredible demands and either lying or completely ignoring their part of many agreements. Any kind of relationship or deal set up with China is a huge mistake.