Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: mark silvers who wrote (19162)	7/15/1998 3:05:00 PM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Mark (from Bob), Thanks for your response. I never felt that you were attacking or belittling me or my beliefs. I view this conversation as healthy, not attacking. I am certainly not going to attack you in any way, you strike me as a nice person who is open to discussion. Even if you were not nice, I still would not take an attacking position but would not have discussions with you. In reference to your response, let me establish the foundation for my beliefs. 1. God is all loving as well as perfectly just and righteous. He has emotions and is not single dimensional. 2. I believe that God establishes the standards for right and wrong, not me. I feel that too many people establish what's right and wrong in their own minds to justify their not-so-holy ways and convince themselves they're righteous (including myself at one time). 3. I believe the Bible to be Gods word to us. Too much fulfilled prophecy alone proves this to me. 4. I believe Jesus Christ to be the Messiah promise in the Old Testament. Now to address your email. I believe that God does love us unconditionally ... I believe that the Messiah is the perfect illustration of that love to us. I do not believe that God is single dimensional (ie. only all loving), I believe that He is a righteous and holy judge who judges according to the standards He established for righteous behaviors. (If God let each of us establish our own standards for right and wrong, what would the world be like? I know I would make a few changes to accomodate some of my sin and I'm sure all people would. Just think, some people could justify that murder was ok.) I agree with your statement that God can achieve anything He choses anyway He choses (provided that He does not contradict Himself). I believe that God provided a way for our sins to be forgiven by sending the Messiah to pay the penalty for those sins. A perfect illustration of how God can accomplish anything in anyway and still illuminate His perfect love for us. If I were God, I certainly would not have decided to come and subject myself to my creation and pay the penalties for their transgressions. That's certainly more love than I could muster up, yet that is exactly what Jesus did. You mentioned some great people and how they preached forgiveness to the people who didn't treat them properly. A noble gesture by these people. You mentioned that you expect God to respond in like kind as these people and more. I think you're missing one point, all sin is a violation of Gods laws and thus is an affront to God NOT man. We are taught not to judge anybody, for judgement is for God alone. If I'm not to judge people, I certainly cannot forgive them, only God can do that. Christ teaches us that if somebody strikes us on the cheek, we should offer the other cheek to them, not judge them. I feel that God is well within His rights to judge and punish sins according to His will in light of the fact that He establishes right and wrong and has provided forgiveness through the Messiah. This forgiveness through the Messiah has been clearly communicated to us through Scripture (Old Testament and New Testament), so God can certainly judge according to the Scripture. The Messiah died (Paid the penalty for our sins) for sinners (which is all of us) so we can be reconciled to God, that is a greater act than actually forgiving. This act paved the way for God to pardon our sins and open the doors to heaven for us. That pardoning of sins through the Messiah's death fits perfectly into Old Testament laws and prophecies. Lastly, you mentioned that you do not believe in original sin. Do you believe that you are a sinner? Sincerely, Bob

To: mark silvers who wrote (19162)	7/15/1998 3:07:00 PM
From: yard_man	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

For us to acquire any divine characteristics there must be choice, free will. Who can be rehabilitated that does not want to be? For the one who does not choose to cooperate in "rehabilitation" should you necessarily judge God to be enacting punishment -- perhaps the person who chooses to go against God's command is breaking themselves upon the commandments, so to speak. In a way it's like an ill person going and seeing a doctor (only a supernatural doctor that can diagnose the actual root causes of the problem, not like the doctors we have with us) and being given a prescription which will heal them; then they choose to reject that and suffer. I think it's more a question of relationship. Does one want one with God or not? Does God want one with us? God shows His love and gives anyone who wishes to the opportunity to acknowledge and respond or to deny and reject. Absent the choice we become as robots, just behaving as we must according to our nature. Any good (human) relationship that you have requires some faith concerning the future expected behavior of the individual whom you are in relationship with. Don't get me wrong -- I believe that love is never wasted, even if it is not reciprocated, but taking any mutually edifiying relationship that you have -- it is completely necessary for one or both of you to act on faith, to initiate love. God's Son is the greatest "initiator" there is. All His work makes for the oppty of a relationship. Our first "work", if I can be permitted to call it that, is to believe that has been accomplished in Jesus Christ.

To: mark silvers who wrote (19162)	7/15/1998 4:59:00 PM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Mark, Steve here! Responding to your post to Bob. Firstly: "I think God is the epitome of unconditional love. I think he loves us all in spite our faults, sins, religions, countires of origin, sexual preference, or political party." Your right! 100% correct! Let's move on..... "Does God choose to punish that soul and perpetuate its evil/misery/ whatever for all of eternity? Or does God choose to rehabilitate that soul, turning it into a vessel of love? Which suits God purpose more? Which would you expect from god?" You imply that God should do the loving, good thing. And he does! He provides an opportunity in everyone's life to know his son. His son, whom he sent! His son who is a somehow a part of him! He sent him as a man, who essentially is a part of him, to live a perfect life, and to die a horrific death for us! Do you know the account of his death? How he suffered! I know people who know the true account of his death who could bearly hear it or read it without bursting into tears. It was death that was, declared by medical professional's today, the most horrific way to die in the world's history. The most painful and torturous! And he sent him, to die even though he was innocent. To pay for our sins! Why? What did God owe us! The answer is, nothing! He did because he loves us! He owed us nothing, but he died for us! How many of the people you mention died for any of us? If that is not love, nothing is! And you know what, God only asks us to know that we are sinners and ask him what the truth is. To maybe read a book God wrote for us, although I know people that are saved that did not even read any part of the book! All he wants us to do is ask him for the truth and he gives it to us! It's that simple. And it is free! So what you implied from your statement, about God loving us, he does! About him rehabilitating us, he does! The only problem I see with your statement is that you are expecting God to show us and to give us his love after we die! And that's not what God tells us! He tells us that we have to accept his gift of love now! In this life, before it's to late! He gives you and everyone an opportunity to accept his gift in this world, and ensures you this opportunity. So Mark, can God show us more love than he already does? Well my personal answer is NO! He died for us! He gives us redemption from our sins, after well defining what sin is, through his shed blood. His own innocent death! He bore our sins, all of them on a cross! He took our punishment away from us, and suffered all our punishment for us! All he asks is you believe in him, that you acknowledge that you are a sinner, and you need his gift of grace. He provides an instruction book, the bible to help understand! But more importantly, he establishes communications with you, again through the bible, but also through prayer. All you have to do is use these tools! All you have to do is accept a free gift! Pardon me Mark if this offends you, but I just feel I had to do this at this point. I never have done this on the thread before, but am inspired to so now: Lord, thank you for myself, and all others who have accepted your free gift of salvation! We did nothing, except ask! And you gave it freely! Even though we are sinners, and we do many things that dishonor you, you love us! You died for us! And we thank you with all our heart, soul and mind! Please show all who are trying to make a decision here on this thread the truth, because they are here, reading this, wanting to know the truth and just needing to ask. Father show them the truth about you and how much you love us through your son Jesus Christ. And I pray in Christ's name....Amen!

To: mark silvers who wrote (19162)	7/15/1998 8:05:00 PM
From: Alan Markoff	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Dear Mark, Please consider that Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King and Ghandi all resisted the oppression coming against innocent people. This is the sin we battle against and Jesus taught to resist as well. Martin Luther especially broke through allot of evil by his strength and resistence of oppression. Paul the major author of the New Testament shares his personal struggles with sin in Romans 7. He says he wants to do what he should do but does not do it and relates this as the struggle each of us goes through every day. In all honesty every day we should be like Jesus and live a totally sacrificial life to all people we encounter. Obviously we do not always hit the mark and that is the nature at war within us IMO. God does expect that to be our standard for it is His standard as seen in His perfect image Jesus. So what can we say before Him for a failure? As Abraham told Isaac God Himself will provide the lamb, and He has. All our mistakes and errors have been atoned for by the Messiah. The original sin is still there or we would not die and we surely will die physically and I have never seen another explanation for death. I have heard the idea that we move onward through our death but why is that death necessary in the first place if it is not for some kind of purefication? God always chooses to rehabilitate but men resist it. No change can be accomplished without acceptance and desire to grow. If men desire strongly to continue to hurt others and not accept Gods love it is not Gods rejection but theirs. What do you think would happen if a person that stood before God and spit at Him and continued to resist the love He is offering? God is all knowledge and knows the thoughts of all people and there seems to be a desire in us to resist His love. I have always said I am grateful to know I face God in the end instead of men for His mercy is huge and His compassion great and that God to me is Yeshua they are one and the same. Thank you as always for your wisdom and gentleness, May the Lord bless you and give you peace, Nancy