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To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (19785)7/30/1998 6:01:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D....taken from Josephus's eyewitness account quoted in Eusebius's History of the Church written approx. 300 A.D.
The Chritians of the first three centuries believed that the destruction of 70 A.D. fuflilled Jesus's words in Matt. 24

------------------------------------------------------

Chapter V. The Last Siege of the Jews After Christ.

1 After Nero had held the power thirteen years,60 and Galba and Otho had ruled a year and
six months,61 Vespasian, who had become distinguished in the campaigns against the Jews,
was proclaimed sovereign in Judea and received the title of Emperor from the armies there.62
Setting out immediately, therefore, for Rome, he entrusted the conduct of the war against the
Jews to his son Titus.63

2 For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had
been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to
death by them,64 and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was
beheaded,65 and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after
the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described.66 But the rest of the
apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had
been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel,67 relying upon
the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my
name."68

3 But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed
to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea
called Pella.69 And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then,
as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men,
the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ
and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.

4 But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme
misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men,
as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of
death innumerable,-all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on
against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem
itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its
particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by
the prophets,70 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was
now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,- all these things any one that wishes may find
accurately described in the history written by Josephus.71

5 But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were
assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls,72
were shut up in Jerusalem "as in a prison," to use his own words.

6 For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour
and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up "as in a prison," they
should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.

7 But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon
them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which
the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God
was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God.

Chapter VI. The Famine Which Oppressed Them.

1 Taking the fifth book of the History ofJosephus again in our hands, let us go through the
tragedy of events which then occurred.73

2 "For the wealthy," he says, "it was equally dangerous to remain. For under pretense that they
were going to desert men were put to death for their wealth. The madness of the seditions
increased with the famine and both the miseries were inflamed more and more day by day.

3 Nowhere was food to be seen; but, bursting into the houses men searched them thoroughly,
and whenever they found anything to eat they tormented the owners on the ground that they
had denied that they had anything; but if they found nothing, they tortured them on the ground
that they had more carefully concealed it.

4 The proof of their having or not having food was found in the bodies of the poor wretches.
Those of them who were still in good condition they assumed were well supplied with food,
while those who were already wasted away they passed by, for it seemed absurd to slay those
who were on the point of perishing for want.

5 Many, indeed, secretly sold their possessions for one measure of wheat, if they belonged to
the wealthier class, of barley if they were poorer. Then shutting themselves up in the innermost
parts of their houses, some ate the grain uncooked on account of their terrible want, while
others baked it according as necessity and6fear dictated.

6 Nowhere were tables set, but, snatching the yet uncooked food from the fire, they tore it in
pieces. Wretched was the fare, and a lamentable spectacle it was to see the more powerful
secure an abundance while the weaker mourned.

7 Of all evils, indeed, famine is the worst, and it destroys nothing so effectively as shame. For
that which under other circumstances is worthy of respect, in the midst of famine is despised.
Thus women snatched the food from the very mouths of their husbands and children, from their
fathers, and what was most pitiable of all, mothers from their babes, And while their dearest
ones were wasting away in their arms, they Were not ashamed to take away froth them the last
drops that supported life.

8 And even while they were eating thus they did not remain undiscovered. But everywhere the
rioters appeared, to rob them even of these portions of food. For whenever they saw a house
shut up, they regarded it as a sign that those inside were taking food. And immediately bursting
open the doors they rushed in and seized what they were eating, almost forcing it out of their
very throats.

9 Old men who clung to their food were beaten, and if the women concealed it in their hands,
their hair was torn for so doing. There was pity neither for gray hairs nor for infants, but, taking
up the babes that clung to their morsels of food, they dashed them to the ground. But to those
that anticipated their entrance and swallowed what they were about to seize, they were still
more cruel, just as if they had been wronged by them.

10 And they, devised the most terrible modes of torture to discover food, stopping up the
privy passages of the poor wretches with bitter herbs, and piercing their seats with sharp rods.
And men suffered things horrible even to hear of, for the sake of compelling them to confess to
the possession of one loaf of bread, or in order that they might be made to disclose a single
drachm of barley which they had concealed. But the tormentors themselves did not suffer
hunger.

11 Their conduct might indeed have seemed less barbarous if they had been driven to it by
necessity; but they did it for the sake of exercising their madness and of providing sustenance
for themselves for days to come.

12 And when any one crept out of the city by night as far as the outposts of the Romans to
collect wild herbs and grass, they went to meet him; and when he thought he had already
escaped the enemy, they seized what he had brought with him, and even though oftentimes the
man would entreat them, and, calling upon the most awful name of God, adjure them to give
him a portion of what he had obtained at the risk of his life, they would give him nothing back.
Indeed, it was fortunate if the one that was plundered was not also slain."

13 To this account Josephus, after relating other things, adds the following:74 "The possibility of
going out of the city being brought to an end,75 all hope of safety for the Jews was cut off. And
the famine increased and devoured the people by houses and families. And the rooms were
filled with dead women and children, the lanes of the city with the corpses of old men.

14 Children and youths, swollen with the famine, wandered about the market-places like
shadows, and fell down wherever the death agony overtook them. The sick were not strong
enough to bury even their own relatives, and those who had the strength hesitated because of
the multitude of the dead and the uncertainty as to their own fate. Many, indeed, died while
they were burying others, and many betook themselves to their graves before death came upon
them.

15 There was neither weeping nor lamentation under these misfortunes; but the famine stifled
the natural affections. Those that were dying a lingering death looked with dry eyes upon those
that had gone to their rest before them. Deep silence and death-laden night encircled the city.

16 But the robbers were more terrible than these miseries; for they broke open the houses,
which were now mere sepulchres, robbed the dead and stripped the covering from their
bodies, and went away with a laugh. They tried the points of their swords in the dead bodies,
and some that were lying on the ground still alive they thrust through in order to test their
weapons. But those that prayed that they would use their right hand and their sword upon
them, they contemptuously left to be destroyed by the famine. Every one of these died with
eyes fixed upon the temple; and they left the seditious alive.

17 These at first gave orders that thedead should be buried out of the public treasury, for they
could not endure the stench. But afterward, when they were not able to do this, they threw the
bodies from the walls into the trenches.

18 And as Titus went around and saw the trenches filled with the dead, and the thick blood
oozing out of the putrid bodies, he groaned aloud, and, raising his hands, called God to witness
that this was not his doing."

19 After speaking of some other things, Josephus proceeds as follows:76 "I cannot hesitate to
declare what my feelings compel me to. I suppose, if the Romans had longer delayed in coming
against these guilty wretches, the city would have been swallowed up by a chasm, or
overwhelmed with a flood, or struck with such thunderbolts as destroyed Sodom. For it had
brought forth a generation of men much more godless than were those that suffered such
punishment. By their madness indeed was the whole people brought to destruction."

20 And in the sixth book he writes as follows:77 "Of those that perished by famine in the city
the number was countless, and the miseries they underwent unspeakable. For if so much as the
shadow of food appeared in any house, there was war, and the dearest friends engaged in
hand-to-hand conflict with one another, and snatched from each other the most wretched
supports of life.

21 Nor would they believe that even the dying were without food; but the robbers would
search them while they were expiring, lest any one should feign death while concealing food in
his bosom. With mouths gaping for want of food, they stumbled and staggered along like mad
dogs, and beat the doors as if they were drunk, and in their impotence they would rush into the
same houses twice or thrice in one hour.

22 Necessity compelled them to eat anything they could find, and they gathered and devoured
things that were not fit even for the filthiest of irrational beasts. Finally they did not abstain even
from their girdles and shoes, and they stripped the hides off their shields and devoured them.
Some used even wisps of old hay for food, and others gathered stubble and sold the smallest
weight of it for four Attic drachmae.78

23 "But why should I speak of the shamelessness which was displayed during the famine
toward inanimate things? For I am going to relate a fact such as is recorded neither by Greeks
nor Barbarians; horrible to relate, incredible to hear. And indeed I should gladly have omitted
this calamity, that I might not seem to posterity to be a teller of fabulous tales, if I had not
innumerable witnesses to it in my own age. And besides, I should render my country poor
service if I suppressed the account of the sufferings which she endured.

24 "There was a certain woman named Mary that dwelt beyond Jordan, whose father was
Eleazer, of the village of Bathezor79 (which signifies the house of hyssop). She was
distinguished for her family and her wealth, and had fled with the rest of the multitude to
Jerusalem and was shut up there with them during the siege.

25 The tyrants had robbed her of the rest of the property which she had brought with her into
the city from Perea. And the remnants of her possessions and whatever food was to be seen
the guards rushed in daily and snatched away from her. This made the woman terribly angry,
and by her frequent reproaches and imprecations she aroused the anger of the rapacious
villains against herself.

26 But no one either through anger or pity would slay her; and she grew weary of finding food
for others to eat. The search, too, was already become everywhere difficult, and the famine
was piercing her bowels and marrow, and resentment was raging more violently than famine.
Taking, therefore, anger and necessity as her counsellors, she proceeded to do a most
unnatural thing.

27 Seizing her child, a boy which was sucking at her breast, she said, Oh, wretched child, in
war, in famine, in sedition, for what do I preserve thee? Slaves among the Romans we shall be
even if we are allowed to live by them. But even slavery is anticipated by the famine, and the
rioters are more cruel than both. Come, be food for me, a fury for these rioters,80 and a
byeword to the world, for this is all that is wanting to complete the calamities of the Jews.

28 And when she had said this she slew her son; and having roasted him, she ate one half
herself, and covering up the remainder, she kept it. Very soon the rioters appeared on the
scene, and, smelling the nefarious odor, they threatened to slay her immediately unless she
should show them what she had prepared. She replied that she had saved an excellent portion
for them, and with that she uncovered the remains of the child.

29 They were immediately seized with horror and amazement and stood transfixed at the sight.
But she said This is my own son, and the deed is mine. Eat for I too have eaten. Be not more
merciful than a woman, nor more compassionate than a mother. But if you are too pious and
shrink from my sacrifice, I have already81 eaten of it; let the rest also remain for me.

30 At these words the men went out trembling, in this one case being affrighted; yet with
difficulty did they yield that food to the mother. Forthwith the whole city was filled with the
awful crime, and as all pictured the terrible deed before their own eyes, they trembled as if they
had done it themselves.

31 Those that were suffering from the famine now longed for death; and blessed were they that
had died before hearing and seeing miseries like these."

32 Such was the reward which the Jews received for their wickedness and impiety, against the
Christ of God.



To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (19785)7/30/1998 6:09:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Respond to of 39621
 
Were the words of Jesus fulfilled as these early Christians believed??
Again, this is taken from Eusebius's History of the Church written appro. 300 A.D. Eusebius received the information about the destruction of Jerusalem from the Jewish historian Josephus's eyewitness account of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem.
--------------------------------------

Chapter VII. The Predictions of Christ.

1 It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold
these very events.

2 His words are as follows:82 "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in
those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For
there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no,
nor ever shall be."

3 The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand
persons perished by famine and sword,83 and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being
betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain.84 But the tallest of the youths
and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the
multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the
works of Egypt,85 while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in
the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried
away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.86

4 These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian,87 in
accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power
saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the
statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if
addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:88

5 "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now
they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a
rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee
and thy children even with the ground."

6 And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says,89 "For there shall be great distress
in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall
be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until
the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." And again:90 "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed
with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

7 If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian
concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge
and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.91

8 Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour's
passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the
release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from
their midst,92 it is not necessary to add anything to the 9 account of the historian.

9 But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that
all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against
Christ,-during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop
there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord,93 were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem
itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself
long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they
might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also
furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not
repent.

10 Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we
cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.

Chapter VIII. The Signs Which Preceded the War.

1 Taking, then, the work of this author,read what he records in the sixth book of his History.
His words are as follows:94 "Thus were the miserable people won over at this time by the
impostors and false prophets;95 but they did not heed nor give credit to the visions and signs
that foretold the approaching desolation. On the contrary, as if struck by lightning, and as if
possessing neither eyes nor understanding, they slighted the proclamations of God.

2 At one time a star, in form like a sword, stood over the city, and a comet, which lasted for a
whole year; and again before the revolt and before the disturbances that led to the war, when
the people were gathered for the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth of the month
Xanthicus,96 at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone about the altar and the temple
that it seemed to be bright day; and this continued for half an hour. This seemed to the unskillful
a good sign, but was interpreted by the sacred scribes as portending those events which very
soon took place.

3 And at the same feast a cow, led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in
the midst of the temple.

4 And the eastern gate of the inner temple, which was of bronze and very massive, and which
at evening was closed with difficulty by twenty men, and rested upon iron-bound beams, and
had bars sunk deep in the ground, was seen at the sixth hour of the night to open of itself.

5 And not many days after the feast, on the twenty-first of the month Artemisium,97 a certain
marvelous vision was seen which passes belief. The prodigy might seem fabulous were it not
related by those who saw it, and were not the calamities which followed deserving of such
signs. For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the
whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities.

6 And at the feast which is called Pentecost, when the priests entered the temple at night, as
was their custom, to perform the services, they said that at first they perceived a movement and
a noise, and afterward a voice as of a great multitude, saying, 'Let us go hence.'98

7 But what follows is still more7 terrible; for a certain Jesus, the son of Ananias, a common
countryman, four years before the war,99 when the city was particularly prosperous and
peaceful, came to the feast, at which it was customary for all to make tents at the temple to the
honor of God,100 and suddenly began to cry out: 'A voice from the east, a voice from the
west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the temple, a voice against
bridegrooms and brides, a voice against all the people.' Day and night he went 8 through all the
alleys crying thus.

8 But certain of the more distinguished citizens, vexed at the ominous cry, seized the man and
beat him with many stripes. But without uttering a word in his own behalf, or saying anything in
particular to those that were present, he continued to cry out in the same words as before.

9 And the rulers, thinking, as was true, that the man was moved by a higher power, brought
him before the Roman governor.101 And then, though he was scourged to the bone, he neither
made supplication nor shed tears, but, changing his voice to the most lamentable tone possible,
he answered each stroke with the words, 'Woe, woe unto Jerusalem.'"

10 The same historian records another fact still more wonderful than this. He says102 that a
certain oracle was found in their sacred writings which declared that at that time a certain
person should go forth from their country to rule the world. He himself understood 11 that this
was fulfilled in Vespasian.

11 But Vespasian did not rule the whole world, but only that part of it which was subject to the
Romans. With better right could it be applied to Christ; to whom it was said by the Father,
"Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for
thy possession."103 At that very time, indeed, the voice of his holy apostles "went throughout all
the earth, and their words to the end of the world."104



To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (19785)7/30/1998 7:04:00 PM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
"I cannot believe that "stand on its own " could mean you do not need the New Testament or the message of Jesus to be saved."

Well, Emile believe it!

Here is living testimony, I am it. This is an abbreviated version;

A dear Christian brother, he has posted on this thread before, Bob, asked me if I knew where I was going when I died. I said, "I hope I am good enough to go to heaven." I know, its not original. Many unbelievers say this, or something like this. He told me no matter how good I was I will not go to heaven! I told him he was nuts! He told me that he could prove to me, and he told me without the grace of God I could not go to heaven. He told me I could not earn my way there. I said, "PROVE IT." But I put a caviat on it. I told him he could not use the New Testament. I was a Modern day Jew, and I did not believe in the New Testament. He said, "If I could prove to you using only the Old Testament that you need God's grace to be saved and that the Old Testament Messiah has been come in Christ, will you believe me?" I said your on. But I truly thought he was out of his mind. He would use a book that my religion is supposed to believe in, to prove Christ was the promised Jewish Messiah. And he would convince me with the Old Testament that I need Messiah to be saved! Huh, no way!

But was I surprised. Through intensive study of the Old Testament only, and through hundreds of verses of scripture, he proved to me that,

1. I was a sinner. (That one was easy! Still is!)
2. I was seperated from God because of sin.
3. That only by the grace of God I could be saved!
4. And Jesus fulfilled all of the Old Testament prophecy about the promised Messiah.

And guess what Emile, approxiametly 6-9 months after my studying and praying, I was saved! Not one, and I mean one verse from the New Testament was used. (Obviously if the verse is restated in the New Testament from the old, that might have been used. But they must have been originated in the old. I would have not had it any other way!) PRAISE GOD that the Old Testament stood on its own! It did!

So Emile, the Old Testament could stand on its own! I am living proof. The first New Testament I ever saw or heard, was after I accepted Christ as my savior. This is the God's honest truth, in of course an abbreviated format!

And Emile and anyone reading this, if a Jew could not accept the New Testament in our witness of Christ and our salvation, use the Old Testament only to prove it! Play on there own turf! It worked for me!

"You have clearly demonstrated your faith and the Spirit of Jesus on this thread."

And it is founded on the Old Testament originally. I have, obviously, since I have been saved through the blood of Christ, studied the New Testament extensively. I had a lot of catching up to do because I was studying only the Old Testament so long before and while I was being saved!

And Emile, once I found out the truth, obviously I knew I had to read the New Testament. And when I did, I learned all about Christ, his teachings. It was a clear reinforcement of what I already knew plus I learned all the principles about Christ's teachings. And if you truly believe the Old Testament, you are convicted that you must read the New Testament. You have to! Your Old Testament Messiah is Christ, and the New Testament book is all about Christ and his teachings.

So that's it! I stand by my words....the Old Testament can stand on its own....PERIOD! But you would be missing an awful lot! An awful lot!

God Bless You,
Steve



To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (19785)7/30/1998 10:53:00 PM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST  Respond to of 39621
 
Emile,

In your post you say:

"Without the New Testament, the Old is dead! There is no more old covenant. The old covenant was a key in the Old Test. It has been replaced by the new covenant in Jesus's blood. You cannot open the promsies of the old without the key of Jesus. The Old cannot "stand on its on." Modern Judaism is a living and dynamic illustration of this point. They believe that the Old Test. " can stand on its on" without the revelations about Jesus contained in the New Testament. They say they honor the Torah and the Prophets, but without the New Testament a veil of darkness envelops their hearts."

No! I was one of those Jews! The reason Modern Judaism is so wrong is that they have misinterpreted the Old Testament, which includes the Torah and the Prophets. They missed the boat! They missed the suffering servant passages in Isaiah among many others! If they knew the Old Testament correctly, they would have no problem with the New Testament and Jesus. But they misinterpreted the Old Testament! That's why they are so lost! Interpret, as I, the Old Testament correctly, and the New Testament can now be accepted as a fulfillment!

Yet again I will repeat myself, the Old Testament, without any knowledge of the New Testament, can stand on its own! The New Testament, I submit, is a needed fulfillment of the Old Testament. But you could understand Gods plan strictly with the Old Testament only and find the Messiah Jesus!

May The Love of God Show Us The Truth,
Steve