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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: IN_GOD_I_TRUST who wrote (19875)	8/3/1998 4:18:00 PM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Bob, Thank you for clarifying how you evangilized me. For Emile has no understanding that I never saw, or had never been taught about Jesus or the New Testament before I was saved. I was like an Old Testament saint, saved without the benefit of the New Testament! I knew Jesus's name, but that's about it! Jesus just put the pieces of the puzzle together later for me, after I was given the gift of salvation from the Old Testament! Thank God for this! Thank God for you! God Bless You, Steve

To: IN_GOD_I_TRUST who wrote (19875)	8/3/1998 5:23:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Bob, "1. You have a tendency of putting the house beneath the foundation. The simple New Testament Gospel you refer to is actually the simple Old Testament Gospel. The OT is first, while there were Levitical Laws in place, it was fully understood in the OT by the big guns (David, Job, Jacob ...etc) that they were sinners who were saved by faith in their Redeemer (We happen to know the Name of the Redeemer now) and not by their adherence to the Law." Kind of cocky for you to make that statement since I've been preaching this for many years. There is no problems with the faith of Abraham and others in the Old Testament. Their faith was counted as righteouness. That is not what this discussion is all about. Jesus Christ the Messiah has come and no one can be saved without faith in the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus. We are no living in the day of the Old Testament when men of faith could look forward to their redemption. The redemption has alreadyoccurred. That redemption is Jesus Christ and the New Testament is the inspired record of that redemption. You are subtly reducing the New Testament and the Church to some by note or parenthesis. You can't pretend that you are living back in the days before Jesus. Jesus has already come and he is the only door to salvation. "The New Testament is not needed to prove that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. If the New Testament is not your source, then you tell me what is your source for the inspired historical account of the incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension and the baptism of the Holy Spirit? To my knowledge, there are no other reliable sources for this saving information but the New Testament. John 1 6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. You declare that For the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.1John 1:17 The NT is not the only vehicle to 'prove' that Jesus is the Messiah. Outside of a special revelation from the Holy Spirit, the written New Testament is the only vehicle to 'prove' that Jesus is the Messiah. In fact, the New Testament is just that--a revelation by the Holy Spirit. You read the New Testament and then you bring that knowledge to the Old Testament and witness to Jews. Just because you don't carry a NT or read from a NT does not mean you are not using the NT. That is precisely what you are doing because you have no other reliable inspired source for the Life, Curcifixion and Resurrection of Jesus. What puzzles me is why are you trying to deny this simple fact. Are you trying to take the glory away from God's inspired NT or away from the Holy Spirit. Today, 2000 years after the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus, the OT cannot stand on its on for mens salvation; it has to have the full revelation of God which means the NT "The New Testament is not needed to prove that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. If the NT is needed to prove that Jesus is the Messiah, THEN HE IS NOT." This is the same as saying that if the Incarnation, Crucifixion and Resurrection and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are not needed to prove that Jesus is the Messiah in l998 then he is not the Messiah. Your are treating the NT as if it is some optional book in God's plan of salvation through Jesus. The NT is central to the salvation of men removed from the historical period of those evenat. The NT is the only Holy Spirit inspired record of those historical and spiritual events, their is no other. The Holy Spirit inspired the Apostles and disciples to write these words for the very reason that they might believe on Jesus and believing that they might inherit eternal life. May the will of God be done on these matters and may his truth and love prevail as we seek for the fullness of his truth. I have witnessed strange things in my years of evanglizing so I do not discount things easily. The fact that your method was successful with Steve is very important and impressive to me. This is why I listen and discuss this with you. Otherwise, I would simply

To: IN_GOD_I_TRUST who wrote (19875)	8/3/1998 6:00:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

"Without the New Testament knowledge that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of Israel that came to redeem man from their sins, the Old Testament is a dead book without fulfillment.>> 3. The OT a dead book before Christ? That's what you're saying here. I don't believe David, Nehemiah, Moses, Isaiah ... etc thought so. I surely hope you don't think so. Let me rephrase that, you're saying if Christ hadn't come yet, the Old Testament is a dead book simply because it hadn't been fulfilled. Let me explain a very basic concept, it is not the fulfillment of God's Word that makes it alive, it is the simple fact that IT IS GOD'S WORD. __-------------------------- Why would you automatically assume that my words are couched in the past? We are not living in the OT days. This is l998. Today, without the NT knowledge that Jesus is the Messiah, the OT would be dead. This is clearly demonstrated among the Jews today. They recite prayers from the OT during their sevices but a veil of darkness remains on their hearts because they reject the NT. "Let me rephrase that, you're saying if Christ hadn't come yet, the Old Testament is a dead book simply because it hadn't been fulfilled" Again you attempt to distort my words. My words are very clear. I am not playing your game and pretend that He has not come yet. I am clearly saying that he has come and those who accept only the Old Test. and reject the New, then the Old Test. is a dead book without the New. It is you who are trying to say that you do not need the New Testament knowledge but only the Old Testament knowledg to be saved in l998. Your teaching is false friend and very clearly false. You take the knowledge from the New T and used it and then pretend that you didn't use it. Let me explain a very basic concept, it is not the fulfillment of God's Word that makes it alive, it is the simple fact that IT IS GOD'S WORD. Are you saying that you don't consider the NT as God's Word only as a secondary fulfillment. The NT is God's Word about fulfillment so we can have faith. We do not see Jesus today, but simply have faith in God's NT Word that is was Crucified for our sins and raised for our Justification. You have twisted a fundamental and true concept about God's Word to put a wedge between Word and fulfillment hoping to reduce the efficacy of God's Word in the N Testametn. In essence, you are saying that you are above the Holy Spirit inspired New Testament Word and can preach the Gospel without it. You are very, very wrong. You in fact use the very Word in the New Tetament that you say you don't use. You have never seen the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus and you rely on the information in God's New Testament Word. May Christ bring us all to a better understanding of his Word that we may love more and be more effective witnesses. In the love of Christ Emile