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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: greenspirit who wrote (24306)	8/15/1998 7:57:00 PM
From: Stock moghul	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

You speak with the premise that "charitable unselfish work" is "good". That helping the poor and homeless is "good". This definition is one taught by society. Question the value of values. Move beyond "good" and "evil". Why is it important to "show" anything? Why bother?

To: greenspirit who wrote (24306)	8/15/1998 11:01:00 PM
From: Skipper	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Michael, From what I've seen, your defense of Christianity has a different character than Emile's. No one wants to be told they are a second class citizen, yet Emile's attempts at conversion are far more insidious than that. For every poor soul that accepts his teachings will be condemned to, possibly a lifetime of, self-inflicted torture. And not only that, they will themselves become carriers and spread their creed of self-torture to others. I think you are wrong, and you think I'm wrong, but Emile is not content to leave it at that. And as I myself was inflicted with this torture in my youth, I wish to protect others, most especially my children, from it. Skipper

To: greenspirit who wrote (24306)	8/17/1998 12:06:00 AM
From: Grainne	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Michael, in most of America one would never encounter the flip side of Christianity. This is a very religious society, and there are even lots of Christian networks on television. Now of course they are all very PRO-Christian, so it seems that in a free society it should be all right to present both sides of the issue. Isn't this a freedom that you would defend with your life? It is certainly a freedom I will defend on this thread. It is true that there are many devoted Christians who do good works. I cannot remember anyone here ever asserting that there are not. On the other hand, there are many pagans and agnostics and atheists who also do quiet charitable works. They do them with no selfish motive, however, since they do not believe they will be rewarded for them later. They do them out of the goodness in their hearts. While you are always pointing out criticisms of Christians here, you polarize the argument yourself by asserting that Christians are better than non-Christians. This is a good example: "I wonder how many national organizations to help the poor and homeless have been started by Atheists? Or Pagans? They talk a great game, but what do they really have to show?" Conversely, I would wonder how many organizations of hatred and loathing and bigotry have been started by Christians? But in the end, isn't the individual behavior of each of us what is important, not whether we have certain religious beliefs? I think the continual argument here sometimes obscures what is really important, which is looking beyond religion towards ethical values. While there is a legitimate reason to debate whether these good works are truly good, or enable the poor and miserable to stay that way, it is a debate I don't feel like involving myself in this evening. I would, however, like to share a column from my local paper which really deals with the essence of the debate between judgmental Christians and those who would argue that what they are practicing has nothing whatsoever to do with religious beliefs of any kind, but rather with raw hatred and prejudice and ignorance of a very evil kind: "THE LETTER was handwritten on nice white stationery printed with pretty yellow roses. "Didn't you know that being gay causes AIDS?" it began. "Didn't you know that being gay is unnatural?" The writer, from Kentucky, was responding to a column of mine about televangelist Pat Robertson. He'd predicted that the folks around Disney World ought to fear hurricanes from God because the amusement park holds "Gay Days" . . . sfgate.com