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Politics : Clinton's Scandals: Is this corruption the worst ever? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: The Philosopher who wrote (3233)	8/26/1998 5:01:00 PM
From: j_b	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 13994

<< You epitomize (if I spelt it wrong, tough) the worst attributes of right wing thinking>> This is where you and I differ - the type of thinking you are discussing is not right-wing (or left-wing). For example, Joe Stalin was as far to the left as you can get, but he also had little respect for human life. Chairman Mao is not exactly known for his humanitarianism. Left-wing philosophy stresses the good of the many over the good of the few, which seems far more likely to result in the type of thinking you were describing. Right-wing seems to symbolize personal responsibility and individual rights, with the good of the many only coming into play when enough people agree that it's worth relinquishing their personal freedoms for. Right-wing people tend to have a great respect for life, but they insist that people accept responsibility for their actions. For left-wingers, it's always someone else's fault (how's that for gross oversimplification?).

To: The Philosopher who wrote (3233)	8/26/1998 5:57:00 PM
From: RJC2006	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 13994

<<<This was not part of an ongoing war where Sudanese civilians had legitimate choice to follow their leaders or oppose them. The attack came without warning to the Sudanese-on-the-street. I believe that most people in the world simply want to live out their lives in as much peace as they can find. They wish these power hungry maniacs who glory in war would just go away and let them get on with their lives. I find nothing to suggest that the average Sudanese knew that there were (if indeed there were) VX gas components being made at a factory in their midst. They bear neither guilt nor responsibility. don't argue that we are prohibited from taking necessary and reasonable military action because some innocent people may die (although I think the jury is still out on the Sudanese situation). However, I DO believe that we have an obligation to regret and mourn their deaths. That is the basic difference between you and me, and it is a basic truth of our characters which is immutable.>>> Please don't paint the Sudanese people up to be just a gang of innocent dirt farmers none of which knows what's going on. I have seen everything to suggest they did know their country was actively supporting terrorists for some time. For that the Sudanese people are responsible. It is up to the Sudanese people as it is up to us to understand and react to what government does. Sudan as a political entity and as a government has actively been engaged in supporting terrorism. In keeping, the people risk whatever calamity befalls them when the consequences of these activities come to fruition.. <<<By your argument, the citizens of New York City are personally responsible because the World Trade Center bomb was assembled in NYC and the U.S. authorities allowed it to go on without stopping it. Your argument is that it is the average New Yorker's duty to know this was happening and rebel, and if they failed to do so and got killed in a raid to blow up the bomb factory, it's their own damn faults and we have no remorse for their deaths. Those who got killed in the bombing, by your argument, deserved it because they didn't stop it, so tough nuggies for them.>>> No, even you know that your argument is disingenuous before you wrote it. Our government did not actively support these people nor did they sanction activity within our borders knowing they were terrorists. The government of Sudan regularly indulged in these practices and now they have paid a high price for it. <<<Or, perhaps a better example: by your argument the jews who perished in the holocause deserved what they got because they should have seen it coming and didn't rebel and overturn the government. So you don't give a rat's rear end for any of them, either.>>> Here we have what is slowly turning out to be the chief tool of propaganda. When you can't articulate a relative argument bring in the Holocaust (Out of respect and for the sake of the Jewish nation at least get the EXACT name correct. Is that really asking too much?) Actually, had the Holocaust happened to all Germans I would support that allegation. Your misunderstanding of it shows. Most of the Jewish people killed in the Holocaust were victims of forced aggression against their country and not from their government's coercion with the Reich. Nevertheless, the German people did put Adolf Hitler in power and no I don't feel a bit of pity for what befell them. <<<You epitomize (if I spelt it wrong, tough) the worst attributes of right wing thinking, and are the reason why, although my ideas are generally pretty conservative, I abhor being thought of as a right winger, because I haven't yet resigned from the human race.>>> Let us not forget that the history of the Holocaust has its roots in liberal ideology. The liberal ideas of Neville Chamberlain, that the world could be a better place through appeasement of a dictator. One man, ONE man connected to the British government stood above this notion and was severely chastised for it and then later elevated to the highest office in his country for realizing the folly of the kind of thinking you wish for me to adapt. <<<This would be your argument, that the average New Yorker was responsible for knowing this and stopping it, and if they didn't act to stop it, if they get killed by somebody bombing the bomb factory, too bad.>>> We as a people are responsible for what our government does and what government we follow. Man has always had that responsibility and has done his utmost to shirk it. Governments are in place to insure the tranquility of its citizenry. The citizenry at some point is ultimately responsible for insuring that the government they support behaves in lawful ways and does not allow lawless people to frequent within its borders. When they reject their responsibility and bad things come of it then no I don't feel sorry for them and I never will. Just remember, there is a price that you pay for apathy. That's what I tell people on election day. Your example of the WTC bombing is so far removed from the Sudan question it is impossible to even begin to compare the two. Had our government known these people were building the bomb that took out the WTC and had we allowed the government free will in this matter than no I don't have a lot of pity for any of us. Fortunately, that was not the case no matter how closely you would like to paint that picture. Comparing Americans to Sudanese who routinely support terrorists...just how low can you stoop?

To: The Philosopher who wrote (3233)	8/26/1998 6:10:00 PM
From: RJC2006	Respond to of 13994

<<<This was not part of an ongoing war where Sudanese civilians had legitimate choice to follow their leaders or oppose them. The attack came without warning to the Sudanese-on-the-street. I believe that most people in the world simply want to live out their lives in as much peace as they can find. They wish these power hungry maniacs who glory in war would just go away and let them get on with their lives. I find nothing to suggest that the average Sudanese knew that there were (if indeed there were) VX gas components being made at a factory in their midst. They bear neither guilt nor responsibility. don't argue that we are prohibited from taking necessary and reasonable military action because some innocent people may die (although I think the jury is still out on the Sudanese situation). However, I DO believe that we have an obligation to regret and mourn their deaths. That is the basic difference between you and me, and it is a basic truth of our characters which is immutable.>>> Please don't paint the Sudanese people up to be just a gang of innocent dirt farmers none of which knows what's going on. The fact is their government actively and vigorously supports terrorists. For that the Sudanese people are responsible. It is up to the Sudanese people as it is up to us to understand and react to what government does. Sudan as a political entity and as a government has actively been engaged in supporting terrorism. In keeping, the people risk whatever calamity befalls them when the consequences of these activities come to fruition.. <<<By your argument, the citizens of New York City are personally responsible because the World Trade Center bomb was assembled in NYC and the U.S. authorities allowed it to go on without stopping it. Your argument is that it is the average New Yorker's duty to know this was happening and rebel, and if they failed to do so and got killed in a raid to blow up the bomb factory, it's their own damn faults and we have no remorse for their deaths. Those who got killed in the bombing, by your argument, deserved it because they didn't stop it, so tough nuggies for them.>>> No, even you know that your argument is disingenuous before you wrote it. Our government did not actively support these people nor did they sanction activity within our borders knowing they were terrorists. The government of Sudan regularly indulged in these practices and now they have paid a high price for it. <<<Or, perhaps a better example: by your argument the jews who perished in the holocause deserved what they got because they should have seen it coming and didn't rebel and overturn the government. So you don't give a rat's rear end for any of them, either.>>> Here we have what is slowly turning out to be the chief tool of propaganda. When you can't articulate a relative argument bring in the Holocaust (Out of respect and for the sake of the Jewish nation at least get the EXACT name correct. Is that really asking too much?) Actually, had the Holocaust happened to all Germans I would support that allegation. Your misunderstanding of it shows. Most of the Jewish people killed in the Holocaust were victims of forced aggression against their country and not from their government's coersion with the Reich. Nevertheless, the German people did put Adolf Hitler in power and no I don't feel a bit of pity for what befell them. <<<You epitomize (if I spelt it wrong, tough) the worst attributes of right wing thinking, and are the reason why, although my ideas are generally pretty conservative, I abhor being thought of as a right winger, because I haven't yet resigned from the human race.>>> Let us not forget that the history of the Holocaust has its roots in liberal ideology. The liberal ideas of Neville Chamberlain, that the world could be a better place through appeasement of a dictator. One man, ONE man connected to the British government stood above this notion and was severely chastised for it and then later elevated to the highest office in his country for realizing the folly of the kind of thinking you wish for me to adapt. <<<This would be your argument, that the average New Yorker was responsible for knowing this and stopping it, and if they didn't act to stop it, if they get killed by somebody bombing the bomb factory, too bad.>>> We as a people are responsible for what our government does and what government we follow. Man has always had that responsibility and has done his utmost to shirk it. Governments are in place to insure the tranquility of its citizenry. The citizenry at some point is ultimately responsible for insuring that the government they support behaves in lawful ways and does not allow lawless people to frequent within its borders. When they reject their responsibility and bad things come of it then no I don't feel sorry for them and I never will. Just remember, there is a price that you pay for apathy. That's what I tell people on election day. Your example of the WTC bombing is so far removed from the Sudan question it is impossible to even begin to compare the two. Had our government known these people were building the bomb that took out the WTC and had we allowed the government free will in this matter than no I don't have a lot of pity for any of us. Fortunately, that was not the case no matter how closely you would like to paint that picture. Comparing Americans to Sudanese who routinely support terrorists...what's with that?