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Politics : Clinton's Scandals: Is this corruption the worst ever? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Brad Bolen who wrote (3312)	8/27/1998 10:37:00 AM
From: DMaA	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 13994

The right to arm yourself is the right to defend yourself, your family, and your property be if from individual thugs, or government authorized thugs (if it ever got to that point). Remove your right to defend yourself and your property and you are a slave. But then Slavery is Freedom I guess.

To: Brad Bolen who wrote (3312)	8/27/1998 1:01:00 PM
From: RJC2006	Respond to of 13994

<<<To suggest the founders of this great country had any concern that we may need to revolt against our OWN country via our right to bear arms is simply revisionist nonsense. For that they invented the election.>>> Wrong. We had voting rights prior to the Revolutionary War. Unfortunately, the representatives were only virtual representatives having no voting power within the body they were elected to. The founding fathers knew only too well that the election process can be circumvented. Anyone who doesn't understand this is living in a pollyanna world. They understood too well that government collusion can be overburdensome and the last defense against tyranny lie in the people.

To: Brad Bolen who wrote (3312)	8/27/1998 7:21:00 PM
From: The Philosopher	Respond to of 13994

To suggest the founders of this great country had any concern that we may need to revolt against our OWN country via our right to bear arms is simply revisionist nonsense. You must have read Jefferson, Paine, et al far differently than I do. Jefferson: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots." Declaration of Independence: "When in the course of human events it becomes necessary ..." Do you see any limit in there on the form of government? Keep in mind that the founders (who, keep in mind, did NOT write the constitution originally but wrote the Articles of Confederation) envisioned strong states loosely tied together in a confederation of very limited and ennumerated powers which basically would deal with mutual defense and trade issues. It wasn't until the passage of the 14th amendment, after the Civil War, that the Bill of Rights even applied to limit the power of states; up until then the states could limit the right to bear arms, limit free speech, etc.; the constitution only said that "Congress shall make no law..." not that the States shall pass no law. After the passage of the 14th Amendment these limitations were imposed on state governments, too, but under the original structure of the constitution these were solely limits on the federal government. Misquoting someone (I think Justice Holmes, but am not sure, and can't quote the passage precisely) a page of history is worth a volume of law.

To: Brad Bolen who wrote (3312)	8/30/1998 8:07:00 PM
From: Zoltan!	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 13994

..To suggest the founders of this great country had any concern that we may need to revolt against our OWN country via our right to bear arms is simply revisionist nonsense. You are proven clueless. "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience [has] shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce [the people] under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence, 1776. Papers, 1:429 "Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing [a people] to slavery." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. () Papers, 1:125 "When patience has begotten false estimates of its motives, when wrongs are pressed because it is believed they will be borne, resistance becomes morality." --Thomas Jefferson to M. deStael, 1807. ME 11:282 "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." --Thomas Jefferson: his motto. "If ever there was a holy war, it was that which saved our liberties and gave us independence." --Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, 1813. ME 13:430 "The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers, 1:548 "As revolutionary instruments (when nothing but revolution will cure the evils of the State) [secret societies] are necessary and indispensable, and the right to use them is inalienable by the people." --Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 1803. "What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. Papers, 12:356. >> For that they invented the election.* Guess you missed out on a few thousand years of history.