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Pastimes : And The 7th Angel Sounded -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Sidney Reilly who wrote (457)	9/2/1998 10:12:00 PM
From: DLL	Respond to of 609

Dear Bob; Personally I have never been able to decide the time of the rapture in my own mind. Each time I hear a presentation it sounds reasonable. I would not be surprised whatever God chooses to do. I actually take comfort in a post-trib view because I feel like it will be a tremendous opportunity to witness the Word of God coming true to unbelievers at a time when they may well be ready to turn to God for help. Let's face it, the crust of the matter is heaven and hell. Whatever is needed to save the lost from eternity separated from God is what we should do and hope for. I will trust Yeshua to mediate for me and God to do with me as he sees fit. In the end I know it will be the most loving decision for all involved. In Yeshua's love for you - DLL PS Without meaning to stir up controversy as I do not have a strong position on the point. I do find this verse interesting as possibly an OT reference to the rapture. I can see why some believe it is pointing towards pre-trib. Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

To: Sidney Reilly who wrote (457)	9/3/1998 12:44:00 AM
From: Stan	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 609

Thanks Bob for your thoughts. Yes, I understand your point about angels. It is certainly possible that one is the "he" of 2 Thess. I don't see it, but I'm not closed to it. I also agree that the pre-trib position is postulated by many believers because of the disinclination to accept suffering as part of the Christian experience, especially in resource-rich America. Any attempt to correct such thinking is laudable. However, I believe that references to "saints" and "elect" could just as easily refer to the Jewish nation as it would to believers in Jesus. Statements in Matt. 24 can be understood toward national Israel who would, for example, have to be concerned about fleeing on the Sabbath. Antichrist's focus is the temple of the Jews. And, the gathering of the elect from the four winds of heaven is the same phrasing as in Isaiah 11:11 to 14 in which the nation of Israel is gathered to their homeland, both Ephraim and Judah. As to Antichrist: In the verse, "and it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them . . " I find it perplexing to see how one would go about making war against Christians. It takes at least two armed or opposing camps to have a war. Because of their belief, true Christians cannot have an armed or militarily opposing position. If Christians are the target of Antichrist in this verse, it can't be war but rather a purge or a pogrom. But, I can understand making war on an armed nation such as national Israel. The entire verse along with the deliberate use of the word "war" is understandable if it is against the Jews of that time. Again, I don't insist on this position as if it were an absolute of faith, for it does us damage to have any debates which may lead to hostility. We should guard ourselves. We should all only be concerned with truth, and allow it to present itself humbly to our hearts. The fact that you are a believer is a gift to the Church and to the world. You may be correct that the rapture occurs after the end. It is safer to prepare for persecution than to blindly ignore such a possibility and be trapped unprepared. This alone does not forbid a pre-tribulation teaching; nor of necessity does it insist on a post-trib one. I do my best to settle questions for myself without raising more. In this discussion, that is still my goal. Bob, what surfaces for me in a study of all the pertinent Scriptures is the pre-tribulation rapture position. But, if you are indeed correct, I pray to be convinced for myself. All His grace to you! Stan