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To: tshane who wrote (10275)	9/8/1998 2:12:00 AM
From: E. Charters	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 11684

Look if you don't stop using big words with vaguely dirty meaning that I can't understand I will be forced to complain to shrill Jill that you are off topic and anyway are most probably insulting or threatening. The transcendent bit of love does not prove or even deny that it is irrational exuberance. If it were not irrational it would not be transcendent. We can rationally say what we cannot rationally be. Math for the self realizers. Let's see. If Existence is E. and perception of existence is P' and all perceivers is {P} and all existence is {E} then we write if P' --> E the if !P then P' cannot be so then E=!E. or P-P'=0 then E is not observed. Ergo E=!E and E is {0/} Of course we must be sure that all P is !P. To make sure of this we must have all P interconnected. But mathematically if we can be sure that P is nonexistent then P' is to. Since E depends on observation to maintain its status it will vanish with P'. or silly math to that effect. EC<:-}

To: tshane who wrote (10275)	9/8/1998 2:31:00 AM
From: E. Charters	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 11684

Where some fundamentalists get around that conclusion is that they assume some final observer of a type not recognized. But the math distinctly says all perceivers. Thus for the U to exist it must create an observer. If it perceives itself then it is definitely alive. What sort of organs it has to perceive itself is a tough call. Perhaps it creates organs. Nasty little beast U. Obviously before the U existed there could be nothing else around not even a creator. The creation of the U must be bootstrap operation. In other words something came into being because something desired to be at the instant of its own creation. There could be no events prior to the first event. So a prime mover cannot precede its own prime movement. A random event is not true either as there can be no events for the first one to be random. So the creation of U must have been the will of void to invert itself into the beingness. In this sense time ran backwards to being from non being. Self will to beingness out of nothingness makes the U a creature. Its capabilities of inimmolation and self creation makes it female and capricious. No wonder it's not talking to us. It's mad. Ok, who said they thought the Universe was overweight. Front and centre. EC<:-}