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Pastimes : Religion on SI -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Alan Markoff who wrote (1073)	9/16/1998 7:06:00 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1542

Hi Alan, In response to Norris, you said, "God dictates dress code................ and if my wife chooses not to dress a certain way she risks eternal punishment........ Good Grief that is ridiculous. Pure insanity thats all just pure insanity......" I'm am not that strict on the particulars of the "dress code." Some Muslims are, so be it. There is something to this stuff though. I'm speaking for myself but my understanding of men in general tells me that, men have a tendancy to fantasise about women when we oggle their forms, even just their hair. I have witnessed women who choose to wear what they themselves call provocative clothing. They claim no one has a right to react in any way to it. Wait a minute. Doesn't the word provocative come from "to provoke." See, I think we are caught up in a double standard here in the west. The dress code simply encourages women to wear clothing that does not display their sexually attractive features. There is a similar requirement for men. In addition men are required to lower their gaze if they notice something sexual that they have no rights to. Although many of the Muslim women aren't sure what western styles are safe (most are designed with an attractiveness component), there are plenty of modest styles that are suitable for Muslim women, especially in the professional wardrobe category. I know it feels a little alien to think about this in our culture, it was difficult for me when some one told me I shouldn't shake hands with women. It occurred to me after I thought about it for a while that this could be how many harrassing relations are initiated in our business environment. God only knows. Any way, I do shake hands but I avoid it except when it would embarrass the woman who has offered her hand in a business hand shake. I have become extremely self conscious of the potentially compromising position it could put women in at the work place. Sure there are extremes. I've seen women argue over which type of scarf God sanctions. The intention is for the sake of modesty. It is up to the woman, but as I heard one Muslim woman say, "No one has any right to what is under here (refering to the cloths she was wearing) except me and my husband. You don't have the right to look, fantasize, advertize, use or exploit in any way. I am taking my share of the responsibility by covering. You take your share by keeping eyes and hands off." She was a PhD in science and I respect her position. I feel bad when the perception of a woman like her is that she is oppressed. I also recognize that there are oppressive people and that abuses of this custom exist. You also said, "If not than who are you to determine who is a true Muslim and who isn't............." Good point, I think the job is taken. God and God alone will judge. The scriptures define the criteria and we are supposed to encourage people to consider Islam as defined in the scriptures, but it stops there.

To: Alan Markoff who wrote (1073)	9/16/1998 11:00:00 PM
From: Raymond James Norris	Respond to of 1542

Is Farahkan (i spelled his name wrong but you know who I am talking about) a Muslim????? A Muslim by definition is one who surrenders to God. I cannot tell you whether or not Farrakan is a Muslim because I don't know his beliefs. If he believes in the Shadah (To bear witness that there is no God except the true God and Muhammad (Pbuh) was his messenger), then I would tell you yes. But it's not my position to judge. ..... Well I am not interested in what you have to say again it's called a personal relationship........... You can't build those huge buildings on that scenario can you...... No, but you also can't defend your position. It's based on something others cannot see or prove. Your belief puts you in a weak position. What's your thoughts on the current State Of Israel. I would like to hear your view on this. Israel is an area where there is disagreement as to which people it belongs to. Some believe it is for the Jews and their true homeland. Others believe that this is a sacred site in Islam and therefore Muslim's land. I don't understand why they both can't coexist. <i.God dictates dress code................ and if my wife chooses not to dress a certain way she risks eternal punishment.... Afraid not. I never said not following one item in Islam means risking eternal punishment. The most important point is the Shadah but Muslims must also have acts to "back up" their faith. Besides, God can forgive anything (except associating others with Him). However, your wife might risk eternal punishment if the only reason she ignored Islam was becuase of the dress requirements. In other words you can't dismiss a religion because you disagree with it. However if she were Muslim and did not adhere to the dress requirements, then it would be a totally different matter. It would be between her and her Lord and for God to ultimately decide. How about Saddam Hussan is he Muslim and if so I will lay you odds that your views will be different than his.............. You totally betray what Islam teaches. There are "bad" Muslims just as there are "bad" Christians. However, one of the things which seperates Islam from Christianity is the unity. When someone is Muslim, he/she believes what all Muslims believe. There are not different churches, different branches, or different denominations. A Muslim is a Muslim, and all believe the same. Peace be unto You, Norris