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To: Rusty Johnson who wrote (11954)	9/24/1998 9:17:00 PM
From: Hardly B. Solipsist	Respond to of 14631

Let's not start this again. The discussion always degenerates into a bunch of anecdotal breast-beating combined with baiting of the more excitable of the participants. I accept that the fact that half of the people want socialism and the other half want a return of indentured servitude, and both positions are completely correct.

To: Rusty Johnson who wrote (11954)	9/26/1998 5:50:00 AM
From: Charles Hughes	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 14631

WAY WAY OFF TOPIC - DON'T READ THIS IF YOU CAN'T TOLERATE LIBERAL POLITICS IN YOUR DIET: >>> Put man on the moon ... get a pink slip. Well, it's kind of a pain, paying for somebody's college education with your taxes and hoping they will go to their country and help it rise, only to find them being used to undercut your salary. Most of these folks went to school here, of course, and cost all of us taxpayers money, on the average. (Except for the loser kids of the idle rich of course, who paid cash for school, but who can't compete with us at real jobs.) The place I am working for now (can't say who, of course) laid off half it's work force the last year, after being bought out by a foreign corporation. Mostly American citizens were laid off, but some others also, mostly philipinos and russians with green cards. More than half of those left are foreign, and a healthy percentage of those on h1-b visas. It seems mean, but boy are they cheap in truth compared to those with green cards. 20K each difference in salary, more or less. (Before you send all those cards and letters, folks, you should know that I have helped over a half dozen people attain visas and/or resident status in this country. None were white. So don't even start.) The folks who don't believe foreigners are hired to displace citizens and permanent residents (who I think should have the same rights as citizens, jobwise, since they have made the comittment) are living in a fantasy world where cost cutting has moral limits. Of course, if you are an MD they make you go back to school for a while before you can practice. Funny how that works. The AMA being a real good union, as it is. I think the argument is ever stronger for the ACM and IEEE to form the nucleus of a high-tech guild movement. The average engineer is pretty conservative politically, but they are pissed about their job security, shoddy quality, etc. So, conservative hard-hats. It's happened before. Guild-style quality rules might be the only way to get less buggy software, too. God knows management doesn't care about the issue. As a Democrat, (usually, I was a 'Reagan Democrat', due to being lied to about his intent to balance the budget) I was a little surprised that all it took to get this H1b agreement through was a few donations and a fund raising dinner in silicon valley: And voila! Former roadblock, no problem now, on the flimsiest of pretenses. I voted for him twice and gave him money, but I must say Clinton seldom fails to disappoint even a moderately liberal person like myself. It's a damn good thing the employment rate is so good, or they'd be handing Newt the oval office right about now. Not that I want the repubs to win that sleazy contest. It's time for a third party folks, and I don't mean a bunch of no-new-taxes buffs from Texas this time, or Alabama either. Nor any wounded republican moderates with axes to grind, nor quaint socialists like the greens or the peace & freedom folks. I think it's time for what England now has, a liberal/progressive party, so that when we get accused of liberalism we can proudly display our little pink cards. Then the Democrats can disavow us for good. We can stuff it with people who can think, and try to get something done in the short time before the rot sets in, in the inevitable way rot seems to have. We'll see. :-) Chaz