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Technology Stocks : How high will Microsoft fly? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: keithsha who wrote (11352)	10/16/1998 2:54:00 PM
From: ToySoldier	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74651

You have got to stop putting your foot in your mouth Keithsha. Let me help you - do some reading before you make such outragiously incorrect and biased statements! You must work for MSFT because the famous MSFT FUD that you are spewing here is beyond believable and can only be created by a MSFT employee. You clearly do not know what Line-of-business apps are, and you also did not read my answers to you that you so intensely demanded from me. "Line of Business apps are more than file, print or net administration. They directly support the business processes." NetWare servers perform all different types of operations including file/print, code transfer, database server functioning, and NLM application execution. So your right in that LOB apps are more than file and print, but you seem to believe that LOB do not include file/print. As for FoxPro, DBase, Access database application LOB's only being simple data/code transfers - I guess you never have developed a network-friendly application using these products on a network. In order to provide reliable transactions they must integrate into a TTS system so that any possible failure can be recovered. Something a simple NOS cannot provide. Another typical MSFT FUD statement. As for the stability of NLMs. As if MSFT is one to talk about executable reliability. Nope, I never ever heard of an NT app. GPFing (remember the term "Blue Screen of Death")! I haven't ever witnessed an NT executable freezing or failing that required the server to be re-booted. What a LAME argument Keithsha! For every NLM abend, there are 5-10 GPF or application freezes that need rebooting of an NT server. The nice thing about NetWare that is not possible in NT is that if a NetWare server does Abend, it can actually trap it and isolate it so that the server can operate in 95% of the cases until the server can be rebooted at a better time. Not so for your NT baby! By the way, Notes was stopped in the next NetWare release for a business and perceived marketing reason - not because of NLM flakiness. And IBM even make a subsequent statement that they may reconsider developing to NetWare in the future. Get your facts straight! Now lets go to your next "Foot-and-Mouth" statement... "We'll have to see if Java and Corba apps gain significant share." Typical MSFT-biased statement. The fact that every major OEM and vendor other than MSFT is supporting and promoting Java and CORBA would have no impact to the success of these technologies. I hate to tell you but as you blindly keep your head in the MSFT sand back in Redmond, IT players all around you are developing applications in both these areas. IBM is the biggest of these players although ORACLE, NOVELL, SUN, and several others are also pushing this. And, a lot of this heavy push to these technologies has a lot to do with the "Do it to stop MSFT's propriatary concepts". But no one will convince a person like you that non-MSFT solutions exist. As for the Merc., nice try to downplay and cast doubt about what they are doing and the stages they are in. The point is that they will be running their trading system off of NetWare and NT and OS/2 will be pulled out! I have no doubt that there will be a few NT servers in there - likely to satisfy point solutions - but even these NT servers will be controlled via NDS. Now for your last piece of BS!!! "NT application servers can also provide file and print services. I can't reliably run apps on Netware. As for directory service, NT has over 600 applications (not utilities) that integrate with it's directory to Netware's 30+" First, NT can provide file/print - very unreliably and at a higher cost than NetWare (Gartner Group stated that for every 1 NW server a company requires 5 NT servers to equal performance) - but you are right in that statement. But as for your next statement. MSFT DOES NOT HAVE A DIRECTORY SERVICE!!! So please explain to me how a company without a DS has 600 applications integrated into its non-existant DS? List even a few of them? Lets say it again: MSFT DOES NOT HAVE A DIRECTORY! Understand? Where the hell did you come up with 30+ NDS based apps? Did your MSFT Marketing Department give these FUD figures? Talk about irresponsible spewing of MSFT propaganda. These statements go very well into the MSFT Revisionist histroy concept that I have heard talked about on this board. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BUDDY!! So now - with all that said, try answering my questions in my last posting to you about exactly what you were talking about regarding NDS error codes and crap like that. And lets discuss the Domain problems that any NT shops of any scale can likely attest to. Domains being a Directory - LOL!!!! What a joke! You cant handle a true Directory Service! (Jack N. statement) Try leaving the redmond office and learning what else is out there instead of trusting the FUD that MSFT's propaganda team is so good at putting out! Toy

To: keithsha who wrote (11352)	10/16/1998 3:42:00 PM
From: cheryl williamson	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74651

Merc never mentioned what the Netware systems would be used for. In fact, this article mentions that this project is being contemplated but has not been approved by the BOD. Nice try, but no cigar, Keith. The article in question clearly states that the NT/OS-2 servers that are to be replaced by NetWare servers are going to be used to increase the productivity of their traders. This is of strategic importance to an operation like the CME, right?? It sounds like the CME likes Novell NetWare better than they like NT & OS/2 because it is faster, scales better, is more cost-effective, and has features like NDS. Just what objection do you really think the board of directors is going to have when they meet with their own technicians who are recommending the change??? If you know anything at all about the way businesses work, you realize that, once IT makes a good business case for what they want to do, the curmudgeons on the board rarely stand in the way. Face it, the CME has evaluated both NT 4.0 & NetWare 5.0 and they just like NetWare better. Novell wins one, MSFT loses one. cheers, cherylw

To: keithsha who wrote (11352)	10/17/1998 5:30:00 PM
From: Frederick Smart	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74651

Keithsha: Let's line up the ducks against Microsoft...... First let's examine this contribution of yours..... >>The Merc new article vs. the year old Chicago Stock Exchange reference is a specious argument. The CSE is running their trading system on NT. This is how they make money. Merc never mentioned what the Netware systems would be used for. In fact, this article mentions that this project is being contemplated but has not been approved by the BOD.>> "This is how they make money....." Do you have any idea how the CSE is using NT? Their trading system is over 15 years old. NT is being used for their internal autoquote, plug in screen displays and cute GUI apps that macro out manual key strokes and autodisplay things that used to require hunting the pecking. I know of no Wall Street based exchange or high volume trading system that is 100% using NT. I've been in the business 17 years. >>IT shops are looking to reduce complexity and some cases this means the diversity of the platforms they deploy. This usually means mainframe and midrange systems such as Unix and NT will stay in place. The questions is what role is there for Netware? NT application servers can also provide file and print services. I can't reliably run apps on Netware. As for directory service, NT has over 600 applications (not utilities) that integrate with it's directory to Netware's 30+. >> Reducing complexity is about all NT has accomplished for Wall Street. And while Novell offers much better file and print services, NT is fine for most shops. Apps is the second area that favors NT, but with the Internet and Java apps exploding this advantage will gradually fade over time. Gates can stop the Internet from drilling into the corporate enterprise. The problem all NT shops have going forward is that they will be captive to their naive decisions to put all their eggs in one basket at a time when the world of the internet is offering up multiple basket apps that will run on Java and force cross platform integration - back and front office - faster than Gates would like for he can't control what doesn't hit his platform. >>Toy, you are going to have to convince me that you have some technical knowledge of Netware beyond the hype you've been digesting and reguritating on this thread. Could you explain NDS back links or watchdogs? If so we'll continue.>> The last area NT will fall down is in shear speed. The bandwidth explosion going on right now will demand blazing speeds for massive new amounts of audio, video, voice and regular data. Netware 5.0 is ready for this explosion NOW. As for NT's strenght in apps, all this will morph into "server space" faster than any of us think. Why have apps running locally anymore when bandwidth is so pervasive and fast? IP datagrams is where the action is at and Netware 5.0 and Novell is set squarely to benefit from this second internet wave that will be massively larger than the first wave. It's enterprise time bubba.... Just to stay even, all companies will be forced to open up their enterprises much more than they are currently. Those who open up more will grow more -its that simple. Novell has embraced this open, fast, high bandwidth path of the Internet Wave II. Like Wave I, Gates will have to do an abrupt about face and embrace more and more aspects of Novells fundamental strengths for it to stay in the game. As for NDS, it will be a portal of portals - the ultimate White Pages of the Internet - reflecting ALL that's inside corporate enterprises. Novell will be able to "network the network" in ways that will make Gates cringe. People want and need to know - inside and outside the enterprise - where everything is located. Right down to personal interests, programs, files, etc. Novell and NDS have the architecture to do this NOW, not in 2-3 years. The power of NDS will accelerate and grow much more quickly than people have any idea. As for Microsoft, its problems with the DOJ will be a major distraction. Odds are they face being split in two companies. More revelations will come out. Their "mindshare" can only get worse. Novell's mindshare is on the rise. Keithsha, tell me I'm wrong on all this...... As for Toy,he's a fellow friend on SI.