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Politics : Clinton's Scandals: Is this corruption the worst ever? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: jbe who wrote (8564)	10/19/1998 5:29:00 PM
From: dd	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 13994

Interesting post jbe. Please give us more. dd

To: jbe who wrote (8564)	10/19/1998 6:54:00 PM
From: j g cordes	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 13994

Nicely said jbe.. "We sometimes forget that "democracy" is not just a political system, but a social system as well. In other words, democracies are marked not just by the fact that they have freely elected representatives, from different parties, at all levels of government. They also have a civil society -- a network of associations, organizations, religious institutions, non-profit groups supporting one cause or another, etc., etc. -- that do much of society's work, and stand between the state and the citizen." Do you feel the middle class (for lack of a better shorthand) which does much of the work, has suffered these last 20 years, and if so is it a cause for concern to the endurability of American democracy? There's been little middle class gain from Reagan forward.

To: jbe who wrote (8564)	10/19/1998 7:29:00 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 13994

<<They also have a civil society -- a network of associations, organizations, religious institutions, non-profit groups supporting one cause or another, etc., etc. -- that do much of society's work, and stand between the state and the citizen. >> In order for such things to thrive don't the individuals within and subject to such systems need to be socialized to operate the system robustly? You noted that the citizens are becoming less submissive to authority. Isn't there the opportunity (especially with their souring impression of the West) for a charismatic leader with a strong "people centered" reform agenda to rise to power. This would still be oppositional to the existing establishment, and it wouldn't be the first time in this region of the world. It seems like they are looking for inspired leadership more than, grass roots democratic revolution. That could easily strengthen the return of fascism.

To: jbe who wrote (8564)	10/19/1998 8:40:00 PM
From: George Coyne	Respond to of 13994

jbe, Thanks for your considered response. I look forward to part two. << In any event, to say that a people without much democratic experience in the past could not "absorb" democracy in the future seemed to me to be unduly elitist, unduly pessimistic, and unduly deterministic. >> Agree; elitism tends to obscure rational thought. If only someone could bring understanding to each Russian citizen at the same time! (:o) G. W.

To: jbe who wrote (8564)	10/19/1998 9:39:00 PM
From: George Coyne	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 13994

BTW, although I'm not sure I can readily explain why, I feel that there is a strong link between democracy and capitalism. They require each other. G. W.

To: jbe who wrote (8564)	10/21/1998 11:21:00 PM
From: Wildstar	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 13994

b) The lack of a "civil society." We sometimes forget that "democracy" is not just a political system, but a social system as well. In other words, democracies are marked not just by the fact that they have freely elected representatives, from different parties, at all levels of government. They also have a civil society -- a network of associations, organizations, religious institutions, non-profit groups supporting one cause or another, etc., etc. -- that do much of society's work, and stand between the state and the citizen. The former Soviet republics have been slow to develop such a network. Some have not developed one at all. So there is little standing between the state and the citizen. I am so glad someone brought up this point - one which is rarely heard in any kind of discussion of politics. I think that the decline of civil society in the USA is one of the more disturbing phenomenon going on today. IMO, democracy cannot survive without a flourishing civil society for two major reasons: 1)These intermediate organizations accomplish their primary function - churches as a place of worship, unions as the workers' advocate, neighborhood crime watches - fight/deter crime. People become less dependent on the government to solve their problems. 2)The other reason is that these institutions are vital is that they provide a setting in which citizens can learn to "do" politics outside of the government. Compromises have to be made, egos have to be kept in check, decisions have to be reached. When civil society deteriorates, the development of political (in the classical sense) skills also suffers. Did you ever read any of Robert Putnam's writings?