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Politics : Bill Clinton Scandal - SANITY CHECK -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Borzou Daragahi who wrote (16180)11/28/1998 5:32:00 PM
From: jimpit  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 67261
 
Sheesh!

Needless to say, you and I see the world from two different perspectives.

I must apologize for answering only with "one-liners" but, with my typing skills, it takes me too long to commit it to text and I often loose my train of thought.

With views like yours, I pray you don't ever get a teaching job.

jimpit



To: Borzou Daragahi who wrote (16180)11/28/1998 5:53:00 PM
From: Les H  Respond to of 67261
 
The price of perjury
economist.com

SOMETHING curious has happened to the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Monica herself has faded away, along with the X-rated gossip that came with her. This has allowed the scandal to be seen for what it is: not about sex, but about presidential perjury and obstruction of justice. On November 19th the House sat through a day of testimony from the independent prosecutor, Ken Starr, who emphasised the gravity of the president's misdeeds; and this week the House decided to hold more hearings about the corrosive consequences of perjury. In a different political climate, one would say that the scandal is moving into its deathly serious phase, with the death part referring to Bill Clinton's career prospects. But, ever since the Democrats' surprisingly strong electoral showing on November 3rd, nobody believes that. Instead, most people think that the president (a) perjured himself and (b) will get off. It is worth pausing to consider what this means for a country that usually cherishes the rule of law with awe-inspiring passion.

America is not held together by the types of glue that bind most other countries. It does not depend on an established hierarchy or church; it has no common ethnicity or language. Instead, America is based on a social contract, entered into voluntarily by all citizens and codified in law, especially in the constitution. Because of this, oaths that solidify a citizen's commitment to the law have taken on a huge significance. Article II of the constitution requires that the president swear an oath to uphold the constitution; Article VI, and several of the constitution's amendments, deal with oath-taking also. In his celebrated farewell address, George Washington asked: “Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice?”

In the light of all this, it seems probable that a president who committed perjury in the early years of the republic would not have survived in office. The text of the constitution, after all, specifies that bribery warrants impeachment; and some types of bribery, for instance the bribing of a judge, seem akin to perjury in that each perverts the course of justice. But, since the time of the founding, two things have changed, rendering presidential perjury more likely, but also more likely to be tolerated. The first change made possible the Lewinsky scandal. The second seems likely to bring about its anti-climactic ending. The first change is that the reach of the law and the use of oaths have both been greatly extended. Two centuries of lawmaking, compounded by the cumulative ingenuity of lawyers, have created statutes and precedents that touch on every part of life, multiplying the chances that citizens will find themselves obliged to give evidence in legal proceedings. Meanwhile, the use of oaths in such proceedings has multiplied as well. For the first century of the republic's life, this sacred device was invoked sparingly. Defendants were usually not put under oath, according to Jeffrey Rosen of George Washington University, because it was considered unreasonable to make them choose between self-incrimination and perjury. But, from the late 19th century, the use of oaths has spread. And, since Richard Nixon's fall, the possibility of nailing powerful figures for lying has inspired many ambitious prosecutors.

The profusion of lawsuits, plus the increasing tendency of such suits to involve oaths, created the circumstances leading to Mr Clinton's perjury. The law of sexual harassment, from which the president's difficulties stem, did not exist in its current and expansive form until the 1980s. Equally, the idea of ensnaring a government official in a perjury trap, which is what Mr Starr seems to have done, is a post-Watergate strategy. Two figures from the Reagan administration, Oliver North and John Poindexter, were prosecuted for lying. In the 1990s many public figures have been pursued for the same sin, including Mr Clinton.

So much for the first change: the multiplication of lawsuits, and of oaths, in an attempt to establish clear rules for human conduct. Now consider the second change, which runs counter to the first: the growth in America of tolerance. This is not tolerance across the board, as any smoker will tell you; but it is tolerance especially of people's private sexual and social arrangements, combined with a wish not to seem to preach about what may be morally right or wrong. Particularly since the 1960s, when a relatively homogenous culture gave way to a feast of alternative lifestyles, Americans have learned not to judge their neighbours' behaviour. They may, for example, believe in family values, but they accept that divorce shatters the marriage oath repeatedly. This tolerance explains the great national distaste for Mr Starr, and for the journalists who have pursued the president. According to five Harris polls taken since February, more than four in five of Americans think that the media have given far too much
attention to the Lewinsky scandal. This is not because they believe Mr Clinton did no
wrong; half the respondents in the same polls agree that their trust in him has been
shaken. Yet, even though Mr Clinton has lost their trust, Americans do not want to
punish him. They are like the witness who sees somebody shoplifting, and turns away:
they are too weary, and too conscious of rival views of right and wrong, to do anything
about it. And so, much as the rise of oath-taking legalism made possible the Lewinsky
scandal, the rise of tolerance is now causing the scandal to shrivel into nothing.

Over the past year, two competing American impulses have slogged it out. The
legalistic, rule-making impulse represented by Mr Starr has clashed with the relativistic,
rule-blurring impulse represented by Mr Clinton. Disturbingly, relativism seems to have
won. America's founding reverence for law has spawned a legalism that in turn has
spawned a pro-tolerance backlash. As a result, respect for the law has been
diminished. It would be better if the excesses of legalism were rolled back, so that
Americans feel readier to impeach the next perjurious president.



To: Borzou Daragahi who wrote (16180)11/28/1998 8:31:00 PM
From: greenspirit  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 67261
 
Borzou, a price is already being paid to our country. Some of the best people in the military are getting out. These are people with deep principles who find it offensive to serve such a Commander in Chief. The liberals in the media will never admit that moral in the military is at the lowest level in decades. And it's primarily been caused by a Commander in Chief who's principles are totally out of alignment with the troops. I could describe to you literally hundreds of first hand stories regarding this issue.

The article Les brought us the other day regarding the treatment of a senior officer, cuts deep lacerations in people who are fed up with hypocrisy! Either we believe in the principles of honesty in a court of law or we don't! This is NOT an autocracy. You may believe in this cynical view of America if you wish. I can guarantee you most people willing to put their lives on the line when given the order from this or any President do not! Honor, decency, courage, trust and honesty are not some flippant media word games with people serving in the armed forces. It's a code most believe in and do their best to live by every day. How can we NOT expect the same from our Commander in Chief, our Leader?

Many in the liberal media are probably glad to see this development. To them the weaker the American military, the more likely we will depend on the U.N. for our strategic needs.

I could say more, but I'm starting to get fired up and I may say something I'll regret.

Michael



To: Borzou Daragahi who wrote (16180)11/29/1998 8:30:00 AM
From: Johannes Pilch  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 67261
 
>I believe the causes include-- 1) The proliferation of firearms in the cities.<

A proliferation that no doubt occurs because of indecency and lack of principle. Criminals acquire weapons to harm themselves and decent people. Criminals and decent people acquire them to defend themselves.

>2) The depletion of the urban property tax base caused by middle-class flight to the suburbs.<

A depletion that also occurs because of indecency and a lack of principle. When politicians tax people to fund their wasteful projects and when the fear of crime assaults law abiding citizens, those citizens tend to look elsewhere to live. This is reasonable.

>3) The glorification of illegal drugs by the counterculture of the 1960s and 1970s.<

And you might add the glorification of irresponsible sex and depravity, all of which occurs because of a lack of principle and indecency.

> 4) The destruction of the trolley-car systems by the automobile manufaturers.<

The point is questionable. Nevetheless it can be argued that the reason even this occurred was because of a lack of decency-- selfishness and greed.

>5) The continued expansion of the interstate highway system in lieu of a sane, intermodal railway infrastructure.<

The point is questionable, and is merely an outcome of number 4 above.
Our problems stem not from hunks of metal and roads. They stem from people who increasingly lack discipline, principle and a sense of decency. Our problem is a moral problem, but morality is such a hated word these days. And so politicians will continue to rob from hardworking people, inflating away the value of their money. They will continue to fund their wasteful projects, studying cow flatulence and whatnot, and all the while the people will suffer.

>To me all U.S. presidents have been scoundrels, war criminals and liars.<

Well. I have studied much of the available materials on our presidents and can find virtually none of them who lied to our courts, breaking one of the most stabilizing principles of our society. And that they were all scoundrels and war criminals is really quite a subjective determination.

>As for Clinton's getting caught lying under oath, he should be punished. I like the idea of prosecuting him after his term is up.<

Very well then. Every American should be afforded an automatic delay of justice depending upon where they fit in the system. The more elitist one's position, the more delay.

>I believe he won't be convicted, however, because D.C. juries are very liberal and very pro-Clinton.<

Agreed, and this is but another symptom of increased lack of principle and indecency in our country. Washington D.C. is a murderous place with schools that literally crumble. A place filled with ignorance, corruption, incompetence and crime. Yet it will try our head criminal, no doubt to fail at its duty to hold him accountable to our law. We see here the problem is once again, a lack of principle and decency.

>I and many others believe impeachment would be more traumatic to the country than it's worth.<

Pain is no license to discard principle. Such a lack of discipline is why our nation's debt will never be paid, and thus is why our throats will one day be collapsed by someone else. It is why the debtload of individual Americans is increasingly unmanageable. It is why Americans save so little of their money, and why abortion occurs so frequently. Americans are increasingly unwilling to delay gratification, to endure the consequences of their decisions. So they try and find ways to avoid themselves, borrowing, stealing and killing to put the moral books back into balance. The problem here is, with each borrowed dollar, with each killing, with each act of stealing and corruption, the imbalance becomes exponentially greater. I promise you we will never solve our problems according to our current formula of spinelessness. It will not happen because two plus two will always equal four. We must stand firm, not from empty legalism, but from an unwillingness to compromise those fundamental principles that hold us all together. It will be painful, but in the long run everyone will be free to prosper. Our current trajectory moves us toward disaster. Those who are not prepared will suffer remarkably.

>Since before antiquity, people with power have gotten away with murder and lying and stealing. It's only the rabble, the powerless plebes, who've ever consistently had to suffer the consequences of their misdeeds. People understand this. They have always understood this.<

Agreed, and also the principle of honor and decency have existed, and where people have striven for them, they have prospered. Where they have discarded them, they ended up oppressed and defeated.

>They see Clinton, or some other a**hole, getting away with a crime and they comprehend that if they did the same thing they would be locked up because they don't have the power and connections that he has.<

My lands! You have openly and casually stated what is the truth. Can you not see how destructive this is? The people, the whole nation and not a jury, have said Clinton is free to flagrantly commit crime. Have they ever said this of anyone in our country? They certainly did not say this of OJ. Though letting him go, he yet filtered through our system to be judged. I think the OJ decision flawed to say the least. But I must admit that Mark Furhman does seem a racist, and that the blood evidence was mishandled. The LAPD didn't even have the sense to prohibit bystanders from having access to OJ's White Bronco. So there is a little voice (a very little voice) that yet tells me of a possibility that Furhman did plant evidence and that the blood samples were tainted. I hate to admit this because I very much wanted OJ to be punished for the murders I am almost sure he comitted. But I do have a doubt, and that doubt is sufficient to allow me comfort that the system worked. On the other hand, in Clinton's case the people certainly know both the crime and the culprit and yet without that culprit appealing to the mercy of their system have granted him mercy anyway. The system has been circumvented. Has this ever happened?

>I dont't think a powerful person getting away with a crime will have any negative or positive impact on our frayed, blood-streaked social fabric.<

Very well then. I guess there is nothing we can do but wait and see. I predict you and I will be long dead when the most destructive ramifications of these times come to light. It is the nature of societies. The things we do today have their most destructive results decades into the future. Because we suffer from a myopic focus upon the here and now, we generally do not have ability to think of future ramifications. I have children. We who breed like guppies tend to take an interest in things like the future.

>That's just the way of the world our elders handed us.<

I beg to differ. Our elders were not perfect, but they did leave us the principles that would help us survive together. We do not even have to hold perfectly to these principles, but we must try. Today we claim it not important even to try-- that demanding that we try is legalistic. It is not legalistic. The Founding Fathers would not have trucked flagrant lying to our nation's court whatever the subject matter, this, despite their own personal failings.



To: Borzou Daragahi who wrote (16180)11/29/1998 10:52:00 AM
From: jlallen  Respond to of 67261
 
Scoundrels, war criminals and liars? Examples please. Especially of the "war criminals." JLA