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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Grainne who wrote (26313)	11/28/1998 4:12:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine	Respond to of 108807

gnostic journey tis not enough to have a gnostic christ within one needs also the voice of men their gnostic thoughts and whims to swell and puff the mind and leave behind thoughts divine itching ears and roaming eyes ever seeking inner learning never able to come to truth. doubling tearful effort wandering beyond their hearts where darkened caves become their light and foolish thoughts like gems well wrought where faint whispers of fallen angels become like words of life pushing down descending paths to a darkness so dark it has no light and evil so evil it seems like right where white is black and black is white and incarnate Christ the only Light is quenched forever before endless darkness engulfs the Life

To: Grainne who wrote (26313)	11/28/1998 7:26:00 PM
From: Sidney Reilly	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Hi Christine, I hope you had a great thanksgiving with your family. I wanted to talk about the way you are looking at the whole "christian" thing. It all started a long time before the "higher criticism" popped up. back in the Garden of Eden we see Adam and Eve. They have it all and only have to obey a simple rule. Don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "because you will surely die". Also in the garden is the tree of Life, God did not say don't eat from that tree. Now here we are in paradise with only one rule to follow, JUST ONE. Could man follow just on rule? Was that too difficult? Well you know what happened. The devil deceived Eve and she ate from the forbidden tree, then gave some to Adam who ate willingly knowing what he was doing. There is a lot more to say just about that, for example why did the devil entice Eve to break the only rule on earth. Why did he not get Eve to eat from the tree of Life? Because the nature of the devil as we are told (you know where) is that he is a destroyer. he wanted Eve to die, and Adam. And eventually they did, though originally they were made to live forever. So death entered into the world. Physical death and also spiritual death. Spiritual death happened first when they disobeyed God, then physical death when their bodies wore out. Now death is cruel as is the devil. It separates us from all we love, the enjoyment of living, and it's so permanent. And it's unnatural. It is unfair. Now God wanted to make a way to redeem man from this pitiful state but had to do it in a way that was acceptable in a legal sense. The devil took possession of the earth when Adam relinquished it by his disobedience in the garden. Romans 5:14. "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's offense, who is a likeness of Him who was to come." and verse 17. "For if by the transgression of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." So it is too shortsighted to look at just christianity and jews and think that is all of it. Christianity has been confused by men who could not rise above the futility of their own minds, but God's purpose from the beginning is clear. God raised up Abraham to bring Himself in the form of a man to earth. Jesus. God by making Jews raised up a nation to bring knowledge of God and the birth of Jesus. But it was always for the whole creation, not just a few Jews. In Isaiah 49:6 God says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant, To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will make You a light of the nations, So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth." Now God is talking about Jesus. His intention is to redeem His whole creation, not just a few people. Jesus accomplished this through His sacrifice. Cruel death could not hold Him, as we are told. Paul says in Hebrews 7:15-16 "And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirements, but according to the power of an indestructible life." What Paul is talking about here is the Jewish Law and how weak it is now compared to Christ. But Paul also shows us how Jesus, who Paul refers to as "another priest", accomplished His rising from the dead. It was because He possessed an indestructible life. Because of His rising all who follow Him can also be delivered from death into life. Romans 8:1-2 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Because of Jesus's victory over death it says in I Corinthians 15:55,"O death, where is your victory? Oh death, where is your sting?" It is here that Jesus states His victory. Revelation 1:17-18. "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; And I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades." I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that will be abolished is death." Jesus (GOD) has taken the power of death from the devil and will abolish death at the end of this age after God's entire plan has unfolded. For those who follow Jesus death is abolished for them already because we have become spiritually alive. We are translated from death into life. Bob

To: Grainne who wrote (26313)	11/29/1998 7:05:00 PM
From: JF Quinnelly	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

I am really still quite curious as to how you can decide that the Gnostics were not Christians, but have finally come to the conclusion that you must be of the belief that Christianity as a belief system came fully formed, like a thunderbolt from the skies. Paul denounces gnosticism in one of his NT letters, so it's hardly me making the decision. You should try reading the biblical texts so you at least know whether your criticisms make sense. The thunderbolt foolishness is a fitting description for the origins of gnosticism, as it certainly has little to do with the biblical writings. These sites also discuss the first Council of Nicea, where, as you will remember from our previous discussions, the concept of Trinity won out, and many Gnostic Christians ended up losing their lives. Did the Gnostics get food poisoning at the Council and die? Your inference that they lost their lives as a consequence of losing the debate is one of your sillier claims.