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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: IN_GOD_I_TRUST who wrote (22881)	12/1/1998 11:18:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Hi Steve, Good to here from you again. Yes, I am still thinking of an answer for you about Hebrews that will help you understand that your views on this subject are mostly in opposition to the Christian teachings of the Church for the last two thousand years. I went through the entire book of Hebrew's and many other Old Testament prophecies that you were attempting to apply to modern Judaism and showed you clearly where Jesus had fulfilled them and you basically avoided them and came back with a few verses here and there to make your point--at least these were my feelings at the time. So I decided it was best to let it cool until we have both have the courage to take things in the full context of the Word of God and the teachings of the Holy Spirit inspired Church of the last two thousand years. The views of the early Jewish Apostles in the Word of God, the Apostles immediate disciples, and the views of the continuous Church are necessary and ndespensable if a Christian is to arrive at a correct understanding of his faith and Christian doctrines. Novelties and new interpretations that go contrary to two thousand years of Holy Spirit inspire Church teachings, can be very harmful to our spiritual lives. Susie's name is still on the frige and me and my wife pray for her and your family from time to time. May the Lord complete the word that He has begun in your life and may your whole family become servants of Christ. Emile Now to the subject at hand. The writings and thoughts of the early Christians leaders, who had been trained and choosen by the Apostles and disciples themselves, must be weighed heavily when trying to understand these issues. the Dispensationalist views that you put forward are a novely and an invention of the last century and are not found in the early Christain Church. The dispensationalist views that you put forward remove Jesus and His Church as the focus of salvation history and put antichrist modern Judaism at the center. CHAPTER CIX Justin Martyr (110--150 A.D.) Christians Are The Holy People Promised to Abraham. Then I said again, "Would you suppose, sirs, that we could ever have understood these matters in the Scriptures, if we had not received grace to discern by the will of Him whose pleasure it was? in order that the saying of Moses(10) might come to pass, 'They provoked me with strange [gods], they provoked me to anger with their abominations. They sacrificed to demons whom they knew not; new gods that came newly up, whom their fathers knew not. Thou hast forsaken God that begat thee, and forgotten God that brought thee up. And the Lord saw, and was jealous, and was provoked to anger by reason of the rage of His sons and daughters: and He said, I will turn My face away from them, and I will show what shall come on them at the last; for it is a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. They have moved Me to jealousy with that which is not God, they have provoked Me to anger with their idols; and I will move them to jealousy with that which is not a nation, I will provoke them to anger with a foolish people. For a fire is kindled from Mine anger, and it shall burn to Hades. It shall consume the earth and her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains; I will heap mischief on them.'(11) And after that Righteous One was put to death, we flourished as another people, and shot forth as new and prosperous corn; as the prophets said, 'And many nations shall betake themselves to the Lord in that day for a people: and they shall dwell in the midst of all the earth.'(12) But we are not only a people, but also a holy people, as we have shown already.(1) 'And they shall call them the holy people, redeemed by the Lord.'(2) Therefore we are not a people to be despised, nor a barbarous race, nor such as the Carian and Phrygian nations; but God has even chosen us and He has become manifest to those who asked not after Him. 'Behold, I am God,' He says, 'to the nation which called not on My name.'(3) For this is that nation which God of old promised to Abraham, when He declared that He would make him a father of many nations; not meaning, however, the Arabians, or Egyptians, or Idumaeans, since Ishmael became the father of a mighty nation, and so did Esau; and there is now a great multitude of Ammonites. Noah, moreover, was the father of Abraham, and in fact of all men; and others were the progenitors of others. What larger measure of grace, then, did Christ bestow on Abraham? This, namely, that He called him with His voice by the like calling, telling him to quit the land wherein he dwelt. And He has called all of us by that voice, and we have left already the way of living in which we used to spend our days, passing our time in evil after the fashions of the other inhabitants of the earth; and along with Abraham we shall inherit the holy land, when we shall receive the inheritance for an endless eternity, being children of Abraham through the like faith. For as he believed the voice of God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness, in like manner we having believed God's voice spoken by the apostles of Christ, and promulgated to us by the prophets, have renounced even to death all the things of the world. Accordingly, He promises to him a nation of similar faith, God-fearing, righteous, and delighting the Father; but it is not you, 'in whom is no faith.' ['Back to Justin Martyr']

To: IN_GOD_I_TRUST who wrote (22881)	12/1/1998 11:51:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Steve, St. Ignatius lived from 30-107A.D. He was a disciple of St. John and was possibly among the early dsiciples who saw Jesus. He was ordained by St. John the Apostle. His teachings were learned from John of the Gospels and possbily also from Christ's own lips. We we here the words of St. Ignatius, we are hearing the teachings of the Apostles. He was killed by the Romans because he refused to renounce Jesus. He gave his blood as a holy martyr for Christ. His words are not equal to the Word of God, but the next best thing. The words of these early Apostles, because of their proximity to the first Apostles and disciples, help us understand the true meaning of the Gospels from an apostolic perspective. May will of God be done. In the love of Christ, Emile The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians ------------ Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the [Church] blessed in the grace of God the Father, in Jesus Christ our Saviour, in whom I salute the Church which is at Magnesia, near the Moeander, and wish it abundance of happiness in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ, our Lord, in whom may you have abundance of happiness. Chapter I.-Reason of Writing the Epistle. Having been informed of your godly3 love, so well-ordered, I rejoiced greatly, and determined to commune with you in the faith of Jesus Christ. For as one who has been thought worthy of a divine and desirable name, in those bonds which I bear about, I commend the Churches, in which I pray for a union both of the flesh and spirit of Jesus Christ, "who is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe; "4 by whose blood ye were redeemed; by whom ye have known God, or rather have been known by Him;5 in whom enduring, ye shall escape all the assaults of this world: for "He is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which ye are able."6 Chapter X.-Beware of Judaizing. Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. For "if Thou, Lord, shalt mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? "67 Let us therefore prove ourselves worthy of that name which we have received. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, he is not of God; for he has not received the prophecy which speaks thus concerning us: "The people shall be called by a new name, which the Lord shall name them, and shall be a holy people."68 This was first fulfilled in Syria; for "the disciples were called Christians at Antioch,"69 when Paul and Peter were laying the foundations of the Church. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the corrupt leaven,70 and be ye changed into the new leaven of grace. Abide in Christ, that the stranger71 may not have dominion over you. It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism. For Christ is one, in whom every nation that believes, and every tongue that confesses, is gathered unto God. And those that were of a stony heart have become the children of Abraham, the friend of God;72 and in his seed all those have been blessed73 who were ordained to eternal life74 in Christ.

To: IN_GOD_I_TRUST who wrote (22881)	12/2/1998 8:57:00 AM
From: Alan Markoff	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Dearest Steve (from Nancy), WOW!!! That was a post. I would like to add some Old testament promises to the offspring of Abraham. Ezekiel 36 25: Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26: A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27: And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28: And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Ezekiel 37 1: The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2: And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3: And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4: Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5: Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7: So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8: And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9: Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10: So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11: Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12: Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13: And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14: And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. 15: The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 16: Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18: And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19: Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20: And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21: And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24: And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25: And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26: Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27: My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28: And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. May He be praised for His love that is so much greater than ours. It is good to have you here and know you and your family are doing well. Nancy