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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: jbe who wrote (26917)12/11/1998 7:58:00 PM
From: Jacques Chitte  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
>In Europe, all states (except Switzerland)<

...and maybe Belgium? It's biethnic - and could probably have been integrated without overmuch trouble into France and the Netherlands. maybe. Opinion?



To: jbe who wrote (26917)12/11/1998 9:01:00 PM
From: nihil  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
jbe, RE: Asian language diversity

I doubt that Europe (or anyone else) could learn very much from Asian experience with multilingualism, which, IMO, has been an almost universal disaster. The widely held delusion that Chinese share a single language is merely nationalistic propaganda. China expanded by conquest of neighbor peoples -- sometimes of the same language families (such as the Southern Chinese (Guangdong)) and sometimes not (Manchurian & Uigur). Those who still speak "regional dialects" such as Wu, Cantonese, Fujien, etc.) actually speak other languages, although they all write "Chinese" with the same characters -- they just pronounce them differently (i.e. speak a different language). Northern Chinese imperialism has been linguistic genocide.
Of course, Japan is not all that different. As Meiji nationalization of formerly provincial han daimyo governments proceeded, many local dialects disappeared as all kids were required to learn Tokyo. Even today there are plenty of (especially older rural and town Japanese, especially in the Southwest, who speak languages incomprehensible to more "educated" Japanese. Japan's suppression of Okinawan is well known. As Japanese expanded northward in the last century they classified Ainu as Japanese or Ainu depending on their occupations -- rice farmers being classified as Japanese and hunters and fishermen as Ainu. Japanese attempts to suppress Korean among those people who were kidnapped during the occupation are also well known.
I will omit reference to Javanese (BAHASA INDONESIA) imperialism and conquest in Indonesia (along with suppression of Chinese), Tagalog nationalism in Philippines (check with Visayans among others), suppression of Chinese and Malay in Thailand, and Hindi linguistic imperialism in India. The split in Pakistan was not only ethnic but linguistic, with Urdu-Bengali conflict important.
It is an unfortunate fact that pronunciation is the most important marker of ethnicity. To create a single national language is inevitably to destroy tribal and regional loyalties. Check the Bible out on the pronunciation of shibboleth. Your life can depend on your pronunciation of a single consonant. I'm sure that Andrew Jackson sounded like an ignorant redneck, and that annoyed "the Eastern elite (who sounded I imagine like bigoted puritan preachers), and the "Southern aristocracy" (who tried to sound like they imagined George Washington sounded.)
(more in the next message)



To: jbe who wrote (26917)12/17/1998 3:08:00 AM
From: Dayuhan  Read Replies (10) | Respond to of 108807
 
jbe,

In better times you'd have had a substantial treatise on Philippine ethnolinguistic details on your hands some time back, and you still will, when things calm down. Had a major car wreck a few days back. By all rights, looking at what's left of the vehicle, we ought to have answers to the thread's favorite metaphysical questions, though we wouldn't be in any position to report. Due to a combination of a very well made car (despite being completely destroyed, the windshields and passenger compartment were uncrushed), seatbelts all around, and Jenny's toddler seat, we all walked out without a scratch, although both front-seat adults have the lines of the belts and shoulder straps engraved in living color across waists and chests. Jenny was vomiting and seemed disoriented after, so we ran her down to Manila for CT scans, which showed some fluid accumulation and pressure in the skull; she's been in treatment for a day and a half now, and is improving fast. All told, very lucky: some might ascribe it to divine intervention, though I understand that most divinities don't intervene on behalf on nonbelievers. In any event, I'm glad to be alive and gladder that the family is, though coughing, yawning, laughing, sneezing, etc. all make me feel like death might have been a desirable alternative. The baby should be out of the hospital tomorrow, which will put me in the world of insurance companies and such for a while, not to mention the pile of accumulated work. And, sooner or later, answering your questions and reading at least some of the thread...

Steve



To: jbe who wrote (26917)12/21/1998 9:17:00 PM
From: Dayuhan  Respond to of 108807
 
I finally got a chance to browse through the SIL site that you linked to. Fascinating stuff. Their count of Philippine languages is higher than what I've heard - the number 87 is frequently cited - but the review seems pretty thorough. I suppose a lot depends on where you draw the line between dialect and language. Hard to do with many of these languages, which are forever in flux, adopting terms from more dominant neighboring tongues. Many of them are now difficult to find spoken in their "pure" state.

SIL has been active here for many years, and has a somewhat dubious reputation - a spook connection is so thoroughly rumoured that it is often taken for granted. I don't know if this is a result of actions here or the better-documented activities in Latin America. They do seem awfully well supplied for an obscure group whose stated aim is to translate the bible into every known language. I've often thought it odd that they can be so eager to preserve the linguistic manifestations of indigenous cultures in their original state, but so eager to demolish and replace the religious manifestations of the same cultures. I suppose to a true believer there is no contradiction.

I've travelled through most of the country, lived in several regions, and have been a student of local language and culture for some time; I speak Tagalog and Cebuano well enough to pass for a native on the phone, and can get by in several others. Answers to your questions, to the best of my knowledge:

Almost everyone speaks a few words of English, but I would guess that the number that could actually call it a second language is much lower than the 52% cited by SIL. I've seen that figure before, and I believe it is based on the assumption that all adults who have completed a certain degree of education are reasonably conversant in English. I don't think that's so. I would say that general levels of proficiency in English has declined noticeably, especially among the young, since I first came here ('79). Interesting to note that Spanish, the Imperial language for 300 years, has virtually disappeared.

In the mid '50's (while the action is often attributed to Ferdinand Marcos, it actually happened before his time) the Philippine government convened a panel of linguists to create a national language. The linguists were Tagalogs, which have always been the politically and culturally dominant group, mainly because Manila was in their territory. They imposed a "proper" grammatical structure on Tagalog, called it "Pilipino", and the government imposed it as a national language. There was substantial resistance from other ethnic groups, especially the more numerous Cebuanos, and to this day Cebuano politicians pretend they don't speak it. "Pilipino" has been taught in schools since its inception, but it is in effect a dead language, as virtually nobody but linguists and academics, not even Tagalogs, can speak it "correctly". Where schooling has failed, though, mass culture has succeeded - the growth of national radio, TV, and movie industries, dominated by Tagalogs and using Tagalog, has brought the language around the archipelago, and it is now very commonly spoken (though not in the academic "Pilipino" form), especially by the young, outside traditional Tagalog territory. In polyglot "settler cities" like Davao, in Mindanao, Tagalog is most commonly spoken. 23% is an accurate figure for native Tagalog speakers, but it is much more widely spoken as a second language than English. At the same time, dominant regional languages like Ilocano in the north and Cebuano in the south are making inroads on smaller linguistic groups. Not long ago it would have been very difficult for, say, Kankanaeys and Kalingas to communicate. Now they can, not because they switch consciously to Ilocano, but because both languages have absorbed so many Ilocano terms (many members of both tribes do speak both languages, and understand the distinction, but the distinction is increasingly becoming blurred). This is happening in tribal areas of Mindanao as well (though Cebuano is the lingua franca) and is simply a result of better transportation and communications and fewer ethnic feuds. As the need to communicate grows, people find ways to do it.

"Pilipino is presently the national language. Filipino is to be developed from it to replace it."

This is entirely new to me, and I would be very surprised if any such plan actually existed. Even if it did, it would be virtually impossible to implement. The notion that a language can be "developed" by executive fiat is pretty well recognized as absurd.

Like most ex-colonies, the borders of the Philippines, Indonesia, and India were drawn without regard for ethnic, linguistic, or religious realities. This has of course resulted in many conflicts in the post-colonial world. Even where there has not been outright war, the arbitrary nature of post-colonial "nationhood" is, I believe, a major factor in the tendency of individuals and leaders to give primary loyalty to clan and ethnic group, rather than the nation. Even where overt secession or civil war is not present, this tendency is often used to justify corruption and mismanagement, and is an important contributing cause of persistent underdevelopment in many areas.

How would Asia have developed if colonists had not arrived? Islam would surely have continued its spread, and Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Papua New Guinea would probably be one nation today. Which would be a pretty thorough redrawing of the Asian scene, though it might of course have gone very differently. Easy to speculate, impossible to know.

The Russians in my past are a consequence of the rather monomaniacal intensity with which my progenitors pursued their literary/academic careers. My mother, a medievalist, once went out and learned medieval Icelandic simply to read certain dour sagas in their original state; in that environment it was only natural that my father's affection for Dostoevsky and Chekov would have somewhat extreme results. In my uncle's case, I think it was mostly that his wife had a grant to spend time in Moscow, and he needed something to do while there, other than trying to convince the poor KGB guy that was assigned to keep track of him to do it by getting drunk together. Academics are odd; despite my own lack of formal education I can sympathize to a degree.

Family is all better, obviously; time to start shopping for another car and fighting insurance battles. Oh, joy...

Merry Christmas,

Steve