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Pastimes : Impeachment=" Insult to all Voters" -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: RavenCrazy who wrote (583)12/22/1998 12:14:00 PM
From: R. Martenson  Respond to of 2390
 
"You simply DO NOT GET IT." ... get what?



To: RavenCrazy who wrote (583)12/22/1998 12:23:00 PM
From: The Philosopher  Respond to of 2390
 
I have never, I hope, thought and have never, I am sure, said that I believed that those who opposed impeachment thought what Clinton did was okay. I find almost universal revulsion at what he did. What I DO see are several broad general categories of responses. Some of them are:

1. He was wrong, but it really was something private and if the Republicans / moral zelots had left it alone nobody would have cared.

2. He was wrong, and it's probably a good thing we found out about what he was doing in the White House with on government time with a government employees, but it's not serious enough to remove him from office.

3. He was wrong, and I'm revolted by it, but he has done so much good for the country and for causes I believe in that on balance it's better to leave him in office and let him atone for his behavior by doing good for the country. (Generally the feminist position.)

4. What he does in his office with a willing partner is none of my or your business and those who spent the cost of 40 cruise missles pursuing this are the real sickos.

5. Hot diggedy dog, we finally caught him with his pants down. (Literally.) We've been trying to nail this slick bastard for years for a whole pile of stuff -- draft dodging, drug use, "I didn't inhale", having known drug users and use in the White House, filegate, the travel office thing, this "most ethical administration in history" crap when more of his officials have been convicted of ethical violations than in any other administration in history, etc., etc., etc., and yet the bastard manages to keep skating out of responsibility for all the stuff he does, but now we've finally got him and we're going to nail him for sure THIS TIME.

6. (Basically my position) What he did with ML was revolting, and was wrong for any boss to do with a subordinate. But that wasn't an impeachable offense. But when he, holding the responsibility for upholding and enforcing the laws of this country, knowingly commits perjury, driving a stake in the most important principle of law and justice which protects the American people, he must be removed from office to set a clear example to the American people that we are, indeed, a nation of laws where even the most high and powerful are subject to the law.



To: RavenCrazy who wrote (583)12/22/1998 12:48:00 PM
From: R. Martenson  Respond to of 2390
 
Selective morality is always difficult to defend. You
raise serious problems that do exists, but also slander
ALL people who differ with you at the same time, by
implicating Reagen supported 'slaughter', only certain
Democrats are aware of homeless people, or use blanket
generalities that are contrary to facts and at the same
time use those generalities to support your view that
other approaches to social problems are evil.

Some things work, some things don't ( duh!), but often
the Democratic response to solutions is 'feel good' or
'feel guilty'. If one see's a way of life is killing it's
own people for 20, 30, 100 years where millions are slaughtered
at the hand of an unjust political or social system, it is
all too frequent for some to judge as murders those who
force change at the cost of thousands. I.E. I heard one
Rabbi recently expouse doubt force was necessary against
Hitler. Now that I admit is fringe, but since he was a Democratic
supporter, I don't hear any outrage.

Vietnam was a mess...but have you ever heard the tally of deaths
in Cambodia and Laos AFTER we pulled out. We treat these country's
tyrants like puppies that can't think and are just misguided.
Again no outrage.

Somalia has millions dying every year...do they need more food?
No they need political stability and a change in the basic
freedoms of the society. The food can't get to them.

There are HARD choices, not all are solved by nice neat packages
of food, slick slogans, and smiling helping hands. There are
some real nasty governments out there, and they are not all
Republican and Democratic houses of wisdom with access to the
internet.

Lighten up...it won't all get solved this week...next week maybe :-)



To: RavenCrazy who wrote (583)12/22/1998 2:41:00 PM
From: xbrent  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 2390
 
Of all US presidents since WWII, I would rank Bill as the least inclined to tell the truth as a matter of every day practice and behavior. Truthtellers for me would include Truman, Carter, Ford and
Eisenhower. I think that Bush was a truthful person for the most part inspite of Iran Contra. I would not rank Reagan or Kennedy at all. Reagan was an enigma to me as a personality. I just don't have an opinion on JFK. LBJ was not inclinded to tell the truth either but not as chronic as Bill or Nixon, IMO.



To: RavenCrazy who wrote (583)12/22/1998 2:53:00 PM
From: J.B.C.  Respond to of 2390
 
>>I mention homelessness and see that people respond as if I simply made it up. <<

Woah there buckoo, you said that homelessness has increased EXPONENTIALLY as a result of Reagan, I called you on that to show us where you got that FACT. As I see you are an English teacher, perhaps you don't understand what exponential means, but I seriously doubt it. Making a statement like that is wrong, fear mongering, and not unlike the Democratic cry that Republicans were out to starve children, and take away Senior Citizens Medicare, it's an outright lie.

There have been homeless since the beginning of this country, there were homeless during Kennedy, Reagan , and even Clinton. Yes sorry to disappoint you, even your Saint (Clinton) has neither addressed nor solved that issue.

So, unless you point to a data base, you did make that up. That would be a FACT. In God we trust, all others bring data.

Jim



To: RavenCrazy who wrote (583)12/28/1998 1:30:00 PM
From: Zoltan!  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 2390
 
>>I have mentioned Reagan's crimes and responsibility for
the deaths of thousands of Central Americans and simply been called a Communist for saying such (I've been getting a fair bit of hate mail).


Gee, maybe its because you're raving crazy, RavenCrazy? What do the others say at your cell meeting?

You can prattle on all you like but that doesn't make any of your Sandinista agitprop true in the slightest measure. Reagan is hated by the crazies on the Left. Reagan's "crime" was that he showed that you and all the other "fellow travelers" were on the wrong side of history, the side of the greatest evil man has yet created.

Stop trying to win the John Reed award for journalistic objectivity. It's over. Your side lost.

December 28, 1998

The Perjury Precedent

By STEPHEN GILLERS

President Clinton lied. He must admit it. No respectable Senate deal is possible
unless he does, no matter how hard that may be. Everything he did was legal,
the President has insisted, because his private definition of critical words --
"is," "alone," "sexual relationship," whatever -- transformed his misleading answers
into literal truth. Too bad, he says, if his questioners were fooled. That is just how the
justice system works.

This is nonsense, but it's dangerous nonsense. "Don't try this at home" should flash
across the screen during broadcasts of the President's testimony. Each year, tens of
thousands of Americans give sworn statements in court and depositions. If they
follow Mr. Clinton's example, they're buying trouble. The law of perjury is not so
simplistic that it will excuse a misleading answer just because it is literally true.

Ask Robert DeZarn, the former Adjutant General of the Kentucky National Guard.
The Army's inspector general was investigating whether contributions to a Kentucky
gubernatorial campaign improperly influenced appointments to the Kentucky
National Guard. The fund-raising allegedly occurred at a party held at the home of
Billy Wellman, a former Guard officer, in 1990. The investigation of the party was
big news in Kentucky. But the investigators mistakenly asked Mr. DeZarn whether
he had attended a party at Mr. Wellman's home "in 1991," not 1990, and the witness,
who was under oath, took advantage of their error.

"Yes," he replied.

"O.K. Sir, was that a political fund-raising activity?"

"Absolutely not."

The Justice Department indicted Mr. DeZarn for perjury and proved he had
attended the fund-raiser in 1990. The jury convicted him, and the judge imposed a
15-month prison term after concluding that Mr. DeZarn told new lies about his old
lies at the trial. On appeal, Mr. DeZarn argued that because Mr. Wellman also had a
party in 1991, which was not a fund-raiser, his answer was literally true and
therefore not perjury. He relied on the same 1973 Supreme Court decision that the
President's lawyers repeatedly cite.

But in October, the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati affirmed the
conviction and sentence. In the 1973 case, it ruled, the witness's literally true answer
was "nonresponsive." He ignored the question entirely, which should have alerted the
questioner.

Mr. DeZarn, by contrast, gave responsive and "categorical answers to questions" in
order to mislead.

The court wrote: "A perjury inquiry which focuses only upon the precision of the
question and ignores what the defendant knew about the subject matter of the
question at the time it was asked, misses the very point of perjury, that is, the
defendant's intent to testify falsely and, thereby, mislead his interrogators. Such a
limited inquiry would not only undermine the perjury laws, it would undermine the
rule of law as a whole."

Mr. DeZarn knew that the investigators were really asking about 1990, not 1991, so
his literally true but "contextually false" and misleading answer was perjury.

The lesson of the DeZarn case can be applied to many of Mr. Clinton's sworn
answers. For example, at his deposition in January, he was asked if he was ever
"alone" with Monica Lewinsky "in any room in the White House." Like Mr. DeZarn,
the President well knew the purpose of this question. His "categorical answer"
denied any "specific recollection" of having been alone with Ms. Lewinsky. How can
that be, especially since one meeting had occurred only three weeks earlier?

Mr. Clinton, it turns out, had his own definition for "alone." As he later explained to
the grand jury, other "people could hear" or even "come in and out at will if they
were around . . . so there were a lot of times when we were alone, but I never really
thought we were." The President had no "specific recollection" of being alone with
Ms. Lewinsky because he didn't know who was around at any particular time or
what it "really" meant to be "alone."

Mr. Clinton's answers were "contextually false" and intended to mislead, even if we
generously assume they were literally true. This is perjury. The United States
convicted Mr. DeZarn for the same conduct. By insisting his answers were legal,
the President endangers those who think they may copy him. They can't. Making
that clear is an indispensable ingredient in any honorable Senate compromise.

Stephen Gillers is a professor of legal ethics at New York University.