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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: E who wrote (29978)	2/4/1999 1:20:00 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

Life is a lottery. It is a lottery to be murdered in the street. It is a lottery to be murdered by the State. The fact that there are people out there who would kill me if they could, especially if I were out alone, at night, somewhere unpopulated, makes me cautious- I don't go out. The death penalty for careless victims changes my behavior- I would be surprised if the death penalty for murder didn't change behavior. But it must be more liberally applied. No matter what your color, or wealth, if you are caught red handed in a murder with special circumstances you should die. Prosecutors should not attempt to reduce the power of the death penalty by using it in borderline cases- or cases where guilt if in doubt- as in those cases where one criminal testifies against another. But in cases where proof is very strong, fry 'em all. I never cared much about the one innocent man, in with the 99 bad ones- because if you let the 99 go and even half kill again then you have 49 more deaths than you should have had. I see no point in warehousing dangerous predatory individuals. If I had a dog and it bit someone to death I would shoot it. I wouldn't keep it in a cage in solitary confinement for the rest of its life- that would be cruel and expensive.

To: E who wrote (29978)	2/4/1999 3:18:00 PM
From: nihil	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

We do not have the data to decide these issues on a "scientific" basis. What we have to seek, I think, is the villains who have large quantitative effects. The cults where one prepotent male's genes crowds out the less than alpha males (natural "followers") might be thought to lead to a sub-race of super men. But in those places were the male's reproductive force ought to be most concentrated -- those with polygamy and concentrated wealth appear to lead to undistinguished progeny. The powerful athletes, brilliant soldiers, corporate leaders, great scientists and lucky gamblers seem to come from U.S. and Europe, not from Muslim Africa and Asia. There is something far more powerful than selective genetics working here. But if a state systematically tried to elminate predators by killing off the ones that displayed the most violence, it would inevitably spread the predator genes among the population (assuming they are, as they almost must be, recessive). I think it is almost certain that the State must destroy the get of the master predator, not just the predator himself. Hard for sentimentalists like us to do -- but, if the basis for the predator is genetic -- and if the object is to be shut of predator genes, then something that ought to be done. I think there is little evidence (as if it had been studied) that the most vigorous sterilizers of retarded people during the first half of this century (states like Georgia and North Carolina, as I recall) produced an enhancement of the moral character of its people. (still very criminal states). While the microgenetic outcomes of allowing "inferiors" to breed may seem obviously dysgenic, the total population effect may be swamped by other causes.

To: E who wrote (29978)	2/8/1999 9:29:00 PM
From: Grainne	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

<Christine, there is no evidence that the death penalty acts to deter predators. There is evidence that more cops on the street do.> E, I would agree that having more cops on the street is a good idea. I also think earlier intervention with disturbed children would be helpful, including taking children away much more quickly from parents who cannot care for them. The huge preponderance of killers were brutalized themselves as children. However, while there may be no evidence that the death penalty acts to deter people from committing murders, it certainly prevents those who have been executed from killing anyone else. <If one wants to kill people, one must say, "I don't care about fairness or deterrence, I don't care how they're selected, I want somebody to die, symbolically and because it makes me feel better." That is a position I can comprehend, because it is honest in its disregarding of morality and the evidence, and is identifiably human.> This I don't agree with. I don't have any of these feelings, and have never been the victim of a violent crime. I simply think that the death penalty, applied fairly and QUICKLY, is a logical response to predatory behavior. <I think the implication is that you believe as I do that we ought to join all the other western democracies and abolish the death penalty. Our lovely company in the international community is countries like Iran and Iraq and China.> Well, I certainly don't think that you can compare the United States to Iran, Iraq or China. We are not killing prisoners to harvest their organs, for example. We don't stone women to death for adultery, either! I do think that America is a much more violent society than the rest of the western democracies. Perhaps we could heavily regulate or completely outlaw handguns like some of them have done, to bring down our violent death rate. You said you didn't want to talk about this anymore, E, so I'm not really expecting an answer. But I guess I pretty much agree with X. I don't believe depraved savages deserve much of my time or attention, and I do not think it damages me spiritually that they die. And frankly, I feel that all the people holding candlelight vigils outside prisons to protest the death penalty could better spend their energy dramatizing the plight of neglected or abused children, and campaigning to make guns less prevalent in America. If we resolved these two issues our society would be much healthier, and the violent death rate would almost surely be much, much lower.