>Johannes, Understand first and foremost that this response is being formulated under the influence of a considerable amount of fine California Chardonnay. To put it somewhat more succinctly, I'm lit.<
LOL. Understood. I will try and take this into account as I study the balance of your post.
>Who, exactly, is forcing religious conservatives to support any views that run contrary to their beliefs? Aside from taxpayer funded abortions and other governmental intrusions on individual rights, that is.<
Well you see it may be simple for you to temporarily dismiss taxpayer funded abortion, but to religious conservatives it is a major issue. Nevertheless there are manifold other areas where religious conservatives are being forced to support what is anathema to their value system. One of these involves sex education in schools. There is a distinct lack of traditional morality concerning the teaching of sex in our public schools, in some cases students are even being taught how to use condoms by use of cucumbers. Religious conservatives are being forced to pay for this. Additionally, since many of them cannot afford to homeschool, and since education is mandatory in this country, their own children are being subjected to such influences and encroachments upon their values. Additionally, publicly funded “art” (so called) has forced religious conservatives to pay not only for insults to their values, but insults to their very persons. This sort of thing is pervasive, and yet when religious conservatives attempt to participate in our system to change it, or it least to have a say in these matters, people like you claim they are attempting to force their belief du jour on the entire populace. Again, this is a very unsophisticated assessment of the matter, but it sells, and so we slip further into barbarism.
>Arrogating governmental powers to force conformity with ones own moral and social views is reprehensible, whether coming from the right or left. <
This is the system, my friend. You and your camp believe it acceptable to kill children (I use the language here not to inflame, but to underscore the gulf between you and I). Yet I am forced by government to pay for these murders. It is our system. People use barbaric arguments to marginalize me into insignificance as I try to participate in it. If I am to be marginalized, I would appreciate having it done by use of good arguments.
>Oh, yes. Between the right and left, the "tools" of government are being used (and abused) to pound freedom into submission. Do you believe that two wrongs can make a right? I don't.<
It has always been thus. Where humans exist there will be disagreements. We have a system in this country wherein disagreements can be resolved without the use of arms. I agree with the system, and prefer it over its alternative. But when those with whom I disagree continually marginalize me with barbaric arguments, I see that I cannot participate in the system effectively. Consequently, a part of me desires to pick up a bomb or gun against them. I see this part manifesting itself whenever an abortionist is killed. I do not much weep in these circumstances because in some sense those who kill abortionists are expressing the barbarism I feel (no thinking here) due to my having had little sense that my values were even considered by the society. It is a very dangerous trajectory upon which this country exists.
>BS, and you know it. You'd love to jam your moral code down the countries throat just as much as the statist socialists would love to impose their agenda.<
I tell you this is the system. You have a moral code also, and you would love to impose it upon everyone else. My contention is that in your implied claim that fundamentalists want to force their belief upon the entire populace, you fail to apply the same statement to your side of the ledger.
>Pardon me, but do I sense paranoia??<
Perhaps you do, after all you are “lit”, as you say. Nevertheless I am not paranoid. I am speaking here of what is logical. If in our society it is generally accepted that libertarians are scum, it is only reasonable to expect libertarians to in some sense feel threatened. Blacks feel this all the time, because historically they have been told they were sub-human and treated as such. They feel this, despite the efforts that have been made to counter their historical oppression. It is only reasonable that they feel this. It is impossible for them to feel any other way, and spending trillions and trillions of dollars will never change it. The only thing that will change it is for society to consistently support what it claims it now believes concerning Blacks. This will include an eradication of Affirmative Action and other such programs, and a dogged and extremely long-term support of structures (“vouchers” is but one of many of these) designed to help Blacks help themselves. Even here it will take perhaps another few centuries for the vestiges of slavery to disappear. The point is when a society accepts disparaging messages about a certain group, it is only logical for that group to feel in some way threatened.
>It's not the values, du jour (of the day), but the values, de jure (by right of law) that I'm talking about.<
My essential point stands unharmed by this distinction. Someone has forced their values by right of law on the religious conservatives. The religious conservatives have the same right to try the same thing working within the framework of our political system. You should not disparage them apart from everyone else.
>Pardon me, but an obviously rather stupid concept. Religious students can pray 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if they so choose. No one's stopping them. How would you feel if a student used the moment of silence to contemplate how much he'd like to bang the head cheerleader? That's the kind of "prayer" that would predominate in most high school settings.<
What is obviously stupid is the contention that students can pray 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, considering they must sleep. The point is, prayer for many people is an integral part of life. Indeed, every morning before I begin my work, I pause and pray. I dedicat the day to God, sacrificing it to Him. I am also asking Him for clarity of mind, persistence of vision and force of character to be able to achieve my goals honestly. Indeed, I have a continual dialog with Him on these very goals as I desire them not to be my goals, but His. In essence I ask each morning for His direction and the power to walk thus. Some parents consider it an excellent thing to have their children, just before they begin their schooling, to dedicate that schooling to God, asking Him for help and direction. I assure you, I find it very hard to “fluff off” and waste time after having dedicated myself to God.
Now surely you do not believe in this God, and quite frankly I am not interested in arguing with you concerning Him. The point is, many people believe Him to exist, and believe a moment of dedication to Him just before an undertaking to be a motivating force. We need motivating forces in our public schools. There is a way to have such a force without infringing upon the rights of others, that way is a simple moment of silence in the classroom before school begins.
>I detest those (of whatever ideology) who attempt to utilize the powers of government to subvert the free choices of any individual.<
Well then you must detest government, because government by necessity will subvert the free choices of individuals. You should then claim ANYone, not just fundamentalists, who uses government to advance their agenda is forcing their belief upon the entire populace. The point is, you should attack fundamentalists as well as pro-choicers and anyone else who uses government.
>My lifestyle choices, however radical and out of the mainstream, are no one else's business, especially the governments, as long as they don't infringe on anyone else's rights and freedoms.<
The point is the system does not allow anyone freedom to break a law simply because they deem the law inappropriate. Change the law. |
