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Non-Tech : Datek Brokerage $9.95 a trade -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: The Vet who wrote (11348)	3/24/1999 7:58:00 PM
From: Sir Francis Drake	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 16892

Vet - outstanding post! Thanks. I have analyzed my recent "questionable" trades, and I have come to the conclusion that most likely it's the MMs who f****d me. The reason is that indeed often ISLD is not on the inside quote - or the ISLD shares are just getting crossed when my marketable order hits. At that point, I suppose I could be at the mercy of an MM. I felt very strongly the last two days that several of my orders were clearly "sat" on - and when I'd try to cancel, it would only show as "cancelling" for long enough for the price to get away - and then indeed it would cancel, or long enough for the trade to go against me, and then lo and behold, I'd be "executed". The thing that led me to believe it was not random, was the fact that in EVERY case it was done to my disadvantage - statistically unlikely if it was random. I will mull over what to do, and I appreciate your pointers. I've learned a lot also from using my direct order entry broker - a lot about order routing, using Snet (and the 10 second obligatory wait for a cancel of Snet orders), using ISLD, TNTO, ATTN direct orders (i.e. not going through Snet), etc. After several unhappy experiences with MMs, I thank my lucky stars - daily - for the existence of ISLD. I suppose after a few more months (years?) of practice I may become so proficient at alwasy choosing the best rout that I could do it without thinking. Until then, I am full of admiration for Datek's order-handling software. And to do it with such volume as Datek does every day! And great handling of listed stocks! And thanks for stating that Datek is not involved in any "untoward" trading practices against their customers - I agree with you, and I think we should speak out against unfair criticisms of Datek (hey, there's plenty of fair criticism available <ggg>). As to busy servers - you know that I've been pounding on this for a long time. However, recently (the last few weeks) - I really have not had a problem. I don't know what to tell you - I certainly sympathize. I trade almost every single day, at all times, and particularly in the morning and toward the close. I do an average of 20-30 trades a day. What modem do you use? Could it possibly be a tech problem at your end? Or somehow the internet in your area? I hope you get this cleared up soon - I know how frustrating it can be.

To: The Vet who wrote (11348)	3/24/1999 8:39:00 PM
From: nick nelson	Respond to of 16892

Thanks for the great post Vet. I was just wondering and ERRONEOUSLY speculating on "Why the added delay in cancels only recently?" My confidence has been restored in Datek!! My BAD!!! Now if the SEC would just shape-up the outside Nasdaq MM's, something NASDR apparently can NOT do.... that'll be the day. But then, I have maintained that the SEC sees Datek as a threat to "business as usual". <g> This Market verses ISLD fill issue also comes into play when placing stop orders. If you use a stop limit, allow 1/16 to 1/8 spread between the stop(trigger) and the limit. nick

To: The Vet who wrote (11348)	3/25/1999 8:21:00 AM
From: gbh	Respond to of 16892

Vet, great post. These details mirror my experiences exactly. I now rely on the ISLD limit book, as much as I do on Streamer. The new ISLD viewer is much more reliable than the old one. Also, the ISLD viewer is about 1 second faster in displaying quotes than Streamer. If ISLD is on the bid/ask, I feel 100% comfortable that I will be filled instantly, provided there is no "server busy". If ISLD is not on the bid/ask I cross my fingers. Gary

To: The Vet who wrote (11348)	3/26/1999 8:32:00 PM
From: Esteban	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 16892

Vet, I have a couple of questions about your order entry techniques you were nice enough to share with us. What I most often do is place a limit order which is just 1/32 or 1/16 outside the marketable price and therefore I get it on to Island immediately. Providing the market is not moving strongly in one direction I usually get a fill much quicker than I would have with an "outside" marketable order that does not go directly to Island. Why wouldn't this order go to the MM on the inside, since a price outside the marketable price would be a marketable order? And if it doesn't, wouldn't this create a crossed market (where the bid exceeds the ask) and therefore be cancelled? I don't believe Island can publish a bid higher than the current ask offered by another MM. Or do you mean 1/32 or 1/16 inside the spread? If there is a partial match available eg. You want 1000 shares but there are only 500 showing on the Island book, then put in two orders, the first to match the Island book exactly and the second for the balance. That way you get at least 1/2 your order instantly. It costs an extra commision but that is usually better than getting scalped by the outside MM. Isn't this the way the order would be handled anyway if you just entered the 1000? Wouldn't Datek execute the 500 on Island and send the rest out? Or do the partial fills only come when no one else is on the inside and Island does not have sufficient shares to fill the entire order? Thanks for clarifying these points. Esteban

To: The Vet who wrote (11348)	3/30/1999 10:19:00 AM
From: smith	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 16892

Vet, Thanks for the educational post. Two stupid questions here hope to get answered: >>What I most often do is place a limit order which is just 1/32 or 1/16 outside the marketable price and therefore I get it on to Island immediately. What's 'outside' mean? lower than ask or higher than bid if you want to buy? >>Once my order has been displayed to the world on Island those "outside" MMs no longer have a chance to play with it. They still may trade around you, but at least then you can see it happening. How you can see it? Using some software or telling by its pattern? Many thanks!