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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Grainne who wrote (34262)	4/10/1999 2:39:00 PM
From: Grainne	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Jesus, continued: "Saint Paul has almost nothing to tell us about the earthly life of Jesus. We simply don't know if he did in fact work as a carpenter, if he was married, if he had children, how he paid his bills. We know nothing at all about what he looked like. The conventional European artistic ideal shows him six foot tall and long-haired, like a member of a heavy metal band. But in all probability he was more Yasser Arafat than Jon Bon Jovi. Even after he begins his famous mission, his life continues to be shrouded in secrecy. Certain miracles appear in some gospels, inexplicably not in others. Scholars can't agree on exactly where he was at most points in his life. We can't even say for sure that he had 12 disciples (Only three names occur in all the gospels: Peter, Andrew and Judas Iscariot). Like a saga from folklore or ancient legend, the story changes radically depending on who is telling it. On even the most central event of the Jesus story, the resurrection itself, you wouldn't know exactly what you are being invited to believe. The accounts contained in the four gospels completely contradict each other at almost every turn: specifically, on who went to the tomb, on what happened when they got there, on what happened when they left. This man who claims the allegiance of millions is little more than a shadow in history."

To: Grainne who wrote (34262)	4/10/1999 3:59:00 PM
From: Sidney Reilly	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Who said the New World Order is a myth? Many world leaders are calling for one! Here is one. arabicnews.com

To: Grainne who wrote (34262)	4/10/1999 8:09:00 PM
From: jbe	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

On the Historicity of Jesus, etc. Christine, historical criticism of the Gospels began back in the 18th century. Ever read Schweitzer's "Quest of the Historical Jesus"? If you are really interested in this question, may I refer you to the "Gospel FAQ", which describes itself as "an attempt to summarize the current scholarly consensus on various matters relating to the Gospels." home.earthlink.net As for the article you posted, I found it a bit superficial, and sloppy on matters of detail. For example: 1) On the question of when the Gospels were written, your author says: Mark is the earliest account, dating from around 50 years after Jesus's death. Matthew was written in the AD90s, John around the turn of the first century, Luke around AD120. To my knowledge (which I grant is limited), biblical scholars have generally concluded that ALL the synoptic gospels (including Luke)were written before John wrote his version. Cf. the Gospel FAQ: The Gospel of Mark was written shortly after the Fall of Jerusalem c. A.D. 70. Both Matthew and Luke were written c. A.D. 80-90. The Gospel of John underwent its final editing and publishing c. A.D. 100. 2) On an even more crucial point, the "Q" Document, your author has: But a much earlier source, known to biblical scholars as 'Q' or 'Quelle' powerfully suggests that most aspects of this narrative [Gospel story] are simply invented. Q is a collection of the sayings of Jesus, dating from a mere 20 years after his death. But there ARE no copies of "Q" in existence, and some scholars deny it ever existed. "Q" is a hypothetical document, constructed by projecting backward from the Gospels (and generally dated 50 AD, not 20 AD). Cf. the Gospel FAQ: What is "Q"? Contemporary scholars generally agree that the authors of Matthew and Luke depended on Mark and a second source designated Q. The Greek Q document was a mid first century collection of the sayings of Jesus (similar to the Gospel of Thomas). Although there are no extant manuscripts of Q, the document can be reconstructed as basically the sayings in both Matthew and Luke that are not found in Mark. To read an English-version critical text of Q by an international team of experts in this field, see augustana.ab.ca. Kloppenborg identifies two layers inthe formation of Q: <http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/klopp.html> Q has proven exceedingly useful in recent research because, originally written c. A.D. 50, it lies on a very close trajectory to the historical Jesus. Professor Mahlon Smith at Rutgers U. has written an essay defending The Canonical Status of Q (at religion.rutgers.edu. Professor Daniel Wallace at Dallas Theological Seminary has written on essay on The Synoptic Problem with some excellent conservative-friendly arguments for both Markan priority and the existence of Q (at bible.org. However, a vocal minority of scholars oppose the idea of Q. Mark Goodacre has put together a good site called A World Without Q as "the home page for Q sceptics" (at bham.ac.uk. Goodacre accepts Markan priority but argues that Luke used Matthew.