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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Ilaine who wrote (35129)	4/18/1999 1:52:00 AM
From: jbe	Respond to of 108807

You can accept it, Blue, but it is still a logical monstrosity, IMO. Frankly, I think the difficulty that some people (yourself included) have with recognizing that rape is a sexual activity is that they assume rape is "unnatural." Nature, in this view, is assumed to be benign. And being benign, Nature has decreed that sex will be "two-sided", a matter of mutual consent. But Nature, in my view, anyway, is not benign. Nature is not malign, either. Nature is neutral. The same thing is true of anything that appears in Nature, sex included. Sex is not necessarily nicey-nicey. It can be a "positive" act (providing mutual pleasure, nice children, etc.), or a "negative" act (e.g., rape). And I submit that in the latter case, the victims know damn well that they are being SEXUALLY abused. Let's not forget that Nature has also created the Black Widow Spider, so named, you will recall, because the huge female devours the tiny male in the midst of the sex act. Talk about sex and violence!!! By the way, I am not a Nature Worshipper. On this score, I am in full agreement with John Stuart Mill, whose essay 'On Nature" I recommend to anyone who has not read it. Joan

To: Ilaine who wrote (35129)	4/18/1999 2:07:00 AM
From: E	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Raping an inflatable doll? What a concept. How would one determine whether 'she' was willing or unwilling? For all we know, she is in love and they are on their honeymoon. How would one determine the feelings of a sheep? We can guess that the sheep would not be feeling a great deal of passion, but 'unwilling'? Who knows? What we do know is that the shepherd who is doing these things is doing them because to him they are sexually exciting. Would it be rape if the shepherd engaged in sufficient and ingenious enough foreplay with his sheep, perhaps incorporating some sheep scents and a few bleating sound effects, that she began to trot with apparent enthusiasm over to the shepherd whenever he whistled? Would it then be a sexual activity for the sheep and also one for the man? What if the sheep seemed on sunny days reluctant to put out for the shepherd, but on cloudy ones, appeared to return his passion. Would you say that the shepherd's erection and ejaculation were sexual when there were clouds in the sky and non-sexual when the sun shone? Don't you see that 'sexual activity' is not definable ideologically? That it makes sense to say that if any person or other creature engages in an activity, however repellent or peculiar or mysterious or violent or ugly or ludicrous or nutz or taboo, that they engage in because they want to and it excites them and they seek an orgasm and find one, then they are engaging in an activity that is, for them, sexual. In fact, I believe you granted earlier, Blue, that it's sex for the rapist but not for the victim. For the victim, it's lying there waiting until it's over, maybe experiencing pain, to see if she will live or die.