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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (35193)	4/18/1999 6:08:00 PM
From: E	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

<<I don't know why this is so important to you. >> Because I hate cant and i hate what political correctness does to the ability to perceive and describe one's perceptions. And because arguing here is fun. And you just changed the subject to whether perhaps my interest in this argument is somehow psychologically suspect, I think. Perhaps I'm wrong. <<There is a sexual component in rape- even when foreign objects are used. But the MOTIVATION is violence not sex. I think those of us who objected to your definition felt that you were not getting the sequence right. a) a Man is extremely violent and wishes to hurt women b) man chooses a tool to hurt women- could be fists, could be a chainsaw, could be his penis c) man that chooses to hurt women and uses his penis is a rapist- so the primary motivation (imo) was violence and rage acted out through sexual behavior but not sexual in the sense that MOST of us think of as "sexual". >> You're doing it again. Yes, that is without doubt the sequence that leads to some rapes. It is, for some reason, important to many people to claim that it is the sequence that leads to all rapes. I don't believe i gave any 'definition' at all. Did I? I believe I gave one specific scenario for the purpose of attacking what I see as the cant assertion that ALL RAPES ARE NON SEXUAL. All! I believe it is others who have attempted to define rape -- as necessarily nonsexual. Yes, some men wake up angry toward women, think how they could hurt them, and decide, what the hey, I can't find my club, I'll use my richard. What I am trying to get agreement on, and thought I had it from you, is that in some men, forcing an unwilling female to submit to sexual penetration is a highly eroticized act. He wakes up not angry, but concupiscent. Perhaps he watched some pornography featuring force-scenarios the evening before. (They are produced to sexually excite guys who get turned on by violent imagery and acts, btw, not to give instruction in the manly art of hostile combat.) So he goes, half erect in anticipation of imminent erotic gratification, to locate and stalk his victim, to be excited by her dread and submission and perhaps by the very smell of her fear. If he is successful, his excursion ends in sexual gratification, for him. If the woman is lucky, he leaves after he has the orgasm, the release, he sought without injuring her further. Somehow, for some, their interest in the woman's fear is over, once they've had their orgasm. He returns home, perhaps to a wife whom he treats well and daughters he protects from harm. After a while, he wakes up once again in the grip of that special lust for sex with a terrified woman, for forced sex, for domination. He wants it. Maybe he tries to control it by masturbating to violent fantasies or pornography. Maybe he always succeeds in curbing the drive to actually terrorize and victimize a flesh-and-blood woman! Maybe this particular man is able to explore and satisfy the eroticization of violence in his personal sexual mind, his 'id,' with fantasy only! (Is the masturbation to climax he engages in with the assistance of violent fantasy or porno 'sexual' or not, do you think, X?) Or, maybe he isn't. I guess you have reverted to your original position that all rape is only incidentally sexual, X. Concupiscence doesn't enter into rape. Violence isn't a sexual fetish, or turn on, for some men. It's odd to me that the only item on the long list of weird things that turn guys on, the list I composed and posted yesterday, the only thing that is eliciting denial that it can be erotic to a class of men, is fear/violence. I'll post it again, I think.